Live from COP31 | The Spill

Amy: Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I’m Amy Westervelt. This is The Spill, our weekly newscast. It runs every Friday in between our narrative seasons. And speaking of which, we have a new one. It’s coming next week, Tuesday. Make sure you’re subscribed so you don’t miss that. That means that you won’t get this show for a few weeks while that series is running, but then we’ll be back to you in December.

Today, I’m talking to our Australia reporter, Royce Kurmelovs. He is at COP31 in Turkiye reporting for us and a variety of other folks as well. COP is the Conference of the Parties. It’s all the signatories of the UN Framework Climate Change Convention. They meet together every year to negotiate how they’re gonna live up to the promises made in that document and various others drafted since [00:01:00] then.

And this year, it is in Turkiye, and Australia is the co-host. If you are wondering how that happened, listen to our last COP episode, where Royce explained all the drama that went down around that at last COP. At any rate, Royce just arrived, and we wanted to get a little bit of a lay of the land and see how things are going so far.

Here’s that conversation

[ music – midroll]

Hello, Royce. Joining us straight from the Blue Zone

[00:01:33] Royce: On the ground, how you doing?

[00:01:35] Amy: I’m good. What’s it like there? You, I know you just arrived yesterday. It’s been hectic. Drilled HQ in Turkiye is a bit farther from the, the venue than we’d like. Um, yeah, tell us about it. What are the vibes?

[00:01:53] Royce: Yeah. So I think one thing that everyone is experiencing at this point, locals and visitors alike, is the, um… [00:02:00] I think there’s something like ninety-six thousand people that have turned up

[00:02:02] Amy: Wow

[00:02:03] Royce: and this is not counting walk-ins, late registrants, and, um, guests or delegations.

So this has placed a sudden and immediate demand on the local transport network that has made it hard to both get in and get out. Um, so, uh, yesterday for instance, I got– came and got my badge on the way out. Uh, ha-ha-having to get a bus out was, um, extremely hard because they’re infrequent, and the desperation to go home is quite high.

[00:02:28] Amy: Oh no

[00:02:29] Royce: And they also seem to have conscripted a bunch of, uh, drivers from outside of the area and just brought them in to help. And so they don’t know where they’re going. No one who getting onto the bus knows where they’re going, but they know they wanna be on the

[00:02:40] Amy: Oh God

[00:02:41] Royce: and so, uh, it was a bit, bit hectic. And then this morning, uh, we’ve had, uh, the, the leaders summit, so we have had world leaders fly in, and it was closed down roads for security purposes.

[00:02:51] Amy: Oh boy

[00:02:52] Royce: So everyone was advised that if you are going in, go in super early, um, to, uh, because you’re not gonna be able to get in otherwise. [00:03:00] Uh, and so right now, they’re all speaking in the, um, main room and I think Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has just spoken and tried to kind of, do a call to arms to keep, uh, to keep things on track,

[00:03:13] Amy: Interesting

[00:03:14] Royce: Otherwise this COP has been, uh, interesting. It, it has been, has been… It’s very well organized once you get into the venue.

[00:03:21] Amy: Oh, well that’s a bonus. That’s not always the case, so props to Turkiye on that one. Yeah

[00:03:28] Royce: you, you’ve got, you’ve got guys handing out free baklava to people when you get in in the morning. There’s free, fruit for breakfast if you skip breakfast. so it’s, uh, uh, a lot of work has gone in to host a good party, I

[00:03:40] Amy: That’s interesting. Were there really long lines to get your badge and things like that? I heard people complaining about that

[00:03:46] Royce: I, I was very lucky and skipped it, but yester- uh, but yesterday on Monday, there was, I think 4,000 people were like left, like a thou- a couple of thousand people were left waiting

[00:03:55] Amy: Oh, wow

[00:03:56] Royce: as the formal process got underway. So, [00:04:00] uh, it’s, it’s been a… been some teething pains, I

[00:04:03] Amy: Okay, in terms of the actual negotiations, anything new happening? Any news coming out? I know it’s pretty early. It’s just day three, right, of the COP, so

[00:04:17] Royce: Day 3, yes. Uh, there’s a couple of things. So yesterday it was reported that Turkiye has found two new oil fields and was very excited about this information, so that come, comes in the background as the process gets underway. It is obviously still very early in the negotiation, so now the work begins of working out, well, what, what people are gonna actually agree

[00:04:34] Amy: Right

[00:04:34] Royce: Um, but one of the things that has come up is that, you know, there has been this big electrification agenda that Turkiye’s been promoting with Australia, um, in support of it. But there’s been a very cool reception to this proposal by other countries,

[00:04:48] Amy: Interesting

[00:04:49] Royce: like the UK, and Europe, because, uh, the language of this proposal doesn’t have the word clean in it.

So you may want to bring global electrification up to something [00:05:00] like thirty percent by twenty thirty

[00:05:01] Amy: Oh, but you don’t want it to be like coal-fired, right? Interesting

[00:05:06] Royce: Yes. Uh, yes. And if you ask Australia, Australia would say, “Well, like if you electrify it, it doesn’t really matter where electricity comes from. It’s still more efficient and still better than, uh,

[00:05:16] Amy: Oh, Australia would say that. I bet India might say that as well.

[00:05:24] Royce: And certain other countries might be in, in agreement, but the EU is taking a line saying, “Well, can we at least get the word clean in there?” Um,

[00:05:30] Amy: Interesting.

[00:05:31] Royce: that seems to be a sticking point.

[00:05:32] Amy: Although, I mean…

[00:05:33] Royce: but

[00:05:34] Amy: I feel like the word clean is up to interpretation as well, so yeah.

[00:05:42] Royce: yes, but then, I mean, not having it in there at all kind of leaves you a g- a gas tanker-sized loophole to which

[00:05:47] Amy: Yeah

[00:05:48] Royce: uh, whatever you want.

[00:05:49] Amy: Yeah

[00:05:50] Royce: You know?

[00:05:50] Amy: Yeah

[00:05:50] Royce: And, and, and it may end up being used to justify new coal plants.

[00:05:53] Amy: Yeah.

[00:05:55] Royce: So here we are.

[00:05:55] Amy: Yeah. Oh, that’s interesting. That’s really interesting. Um, what have [00:06:00] you seen around the Blue Zone? Any, like, country booths that stand out or, themes?

[00:06:06] Royce: I can definitely say that the politics are once again on display very clearly from how things are working out. For instance, Turkiye, the host, has the biggest, tallest pavilion in the center of the room

[00:06:17] Amy: Mhm.

[00:06:17] Royce: Uh, the Australian pavilion is across the way. Um, China has a very large pavilion and is very– seems to be a very popular pavilion. And then, and then you see Az-Azerbaijan also close to Turkiye and other kind of big petroleum states and, um, associated ones. So you, you, uh, it… That, that has been an interesting part of the process.

[00:06:34] Amy: What’s the media room like? How many media people are there? Does it seem like a lot of people came or, yeah

[00:06:42] Royce: Oh, uh, it’s actually, it’s, it’s pretty full. I’m sitting in there now, which is I’m sitting by an exit, so you can probably hear

[00:06:47] Amy: Mhm.

[00:06:48] Royce: Um, but it’s pretty full. Pretty– There’s a lot of interest. A lot of tables are full. What has been interesting though is, um, at least from an Australian perspective, there is a reporter from News Corp Australia who has been s- who seems to have been sent[00:07:00]

[00:07:00] Amy: Interesting

[00:07:01] Royce: halfway around the world to investigate the coffee queue at the Australian Pavilion.

[00:07:05] Amy: While the Australian Pavilion is well known for having the good coffee at COP, this is a thing

[00:07:11] Royce: Well, it, is, but if you go to their socials, you see these videos of vox pops with earnest, uh, people with interesting European accents in nice suits drinking, uh, lattes and flat whites provided by the Australian taxpayer, which this reporter is suggesting, um, is a waste of Australian taxpayer money

[00:07:28] Amy: It’s so funny

[00:07:29] Royce: Although I can confirm a Turkish official in the queue told me that Australia does very good coffee, and they said that strictly off the record, which I feel like is a soft power win.

[00:07:37] Amy: Okay. Obviously I had to go check this out for myself, and it is truly something. Here is just one of this reporter’s clips from Instagram

[00:07:49] NewsCorp: I’m at the COP31 conference here in Turkiye, and this is the Australian Pavilion. Now, this is where taxpayers are paying $32,000 for this coffee [00:08:00] machine here to make all these people who are lining up free drinks. Now, they’ve got paper cups here. They’re ra- making a range of drinks, flat whites, lattes, and long blacks.

Now if you come with me down here, we’ll look at the queue of people waiting to get coffees here. Now, remembering Australian taxpayers are paying for this here at COP31. So let’s find out, is the coffee here any good? Really good. It’s, uh, feels like, uh, authentic Arabiata. And I’m also happy it’s for free.

I wanna thank you to taxpayers for this coffee and for, for the joy it gives me. Well, first of all, it looks lovely and the service was great, and it’s, uh, well, it’s a long line. It seems to be the, the perfect attraction here in The Pavilions. Thank you, Australia taxpayers. We are very grateful. Amazing. I, I’m, I’m, I’m amazed by the fact that the crema on the long black is, is, is har- is there, is showing, so amazing.

[00:09:00] No, very good. The coffee is delicious. Yeah, it’s a very long line over here. Every time whenever you come to Australian Pavilion, there’s, they always provide really, really tasty coffee and you always see a bunch of people lined up, queued up to get that coffee. It’s lunchtime here on day one of the conference and there’s plenty of people lining up for coffees here that Australian taxpayers are funding back at home.

[00:09:24] Amy: So, you know, if you see Sophie at the Australia booth, um, she’s not operating in good faith. Also, uh, can I just say that $32,000 doesn’t sound like a lot of money for the Australian taxpayers to be paying . I’m sure they pay at least that at various energy conferences they attend as well.

Not to mention the fact that News Corp spent how much to send this ridiculous lady to the Australia coffee line? Okay, back to the conversation with Royce.

[00:09:58] Royce: So, you know, I, [00:10:00] I think that’s worth noting given the strain on newsroom budg-budgets and the decision about where to send a reporter is probably, um,

[00:10:06] Amy: Yeah.

[00:10:07] Royce: needs a

[00:10:08] Amy: Interesting. I actually was just reading this morning the, um, the COP newsletter from CAAD, uh, Climate Action Against Disinformation, which is, like, a coalition of a bunch of NGOs, and they were kind of warning there’s apparently quite a few sort of, um, like, fringy right-wing outlets at COP trying to sort of do a lot of gonzo gotcha journalism there.

So keep an eye out for that. Yeah.

[00:10:36] Royce: And that, yeah, and that kind of oppositional stuff is really interesting and something that was kind of new in the context of this process, because usually the people that, that go to the effort and the expense of coming out here are, um,

[00:10:46] Amy: Interested in the process in some way. Yeah.

[00:10:52] Royce: Yeah. involved. Yeah. E-even the people trying to sell you on, uh, you know, uh, on, on, uh, gas projects and things like that are at least [00:11:00] interested in the

[00:11:00] Amy: Yeah. You mentioned earlier that Albanese said something in the leadership summit. Are you getting any, like, rumors out of, um, that room? I know it’s cl- again, just for the people, um, reporters are not allowed in any of these rooms. It’s very weird. Uh, you, you, as an NGO observer, you can go into some of the rooms, but I believe not the leadership summit.

Um, so it’s really quite opaque, um, you know, this process. And then they sort of come out and announce, like, “This is the agenda,” or, “This is what we’re gonna commit to, um, for, for this process.” So yeah, what are you hearing so far?

[00:11:45] Royce: Well, from what I’ve– e-everyone is basically stressing that it is still very early

[00:11:49] Amy: Mhm.

[00:11:49] Royce: Like, it is very early in the process. Basically, the work is getting underway. Um, and there is varying degrees of speculation, suspicion about what will move. And like, there’s been [00:12:00] reports of some rooms moving quickly and some rooms not. Again, we’re not in them, so we don’t know. Um, also, given Australia in particular’s involvement in a kind of ceremonial capacity, a lot of the focus right now seems to have been very much on let’s get the ball rolling. Let’s do the speeches and say the nice words and get this, you know, get the process underway. Um, and then we’ll start to see how things, uh, you know, turn out. Um, given the transport issues and given, uh, the, the leader summit today, a lot of places have actually canceled a lot of public, um, press conferences and things of that

[00:12:33] Amy: Oh, wow.

[00:12:33] Royce: you just can’t get people in

[00:12:34] Amy: Yeah

[00:12:35] Royce: So, even if it is day three, we’re still kind of right at the, uh,

[00:12:38] Amy: At the beginning.

[00:12:39] Royce: s-s– the starting point of this

[00:12:41] Amy: Yeah

[00:12:41] Royce: But yeah, I can confirm a lot of beautiful words have been spoken. Um, we will see where that ends up in two weeks

[00:12:48] Amy: How have you seen, if at all, the past COP presidency, the Brazilians kind of showing up here with their roadmap for transition away from fossil fuels?

[00:12:59] Royce: Yeah. I [00:13:00] mean, and that is something that has been interesting to watch because as you and I know because we were there from last year, that was kind of initiated in response to Colombia doing their thing. So You have these two kind of aligned but slightly separate processes, and I think Brazil’s, uh, um, the previous COP presidency has committed to kind of continuing to steward that and encourage the takeover going forward.

It is still voluntary though. People don’t have to do it, but having those sorts of documents and those processes, I mean, is gonna be kind of important going forward because it offers a release valve and an outlet that they– that may ultimately push the COP process

[00:13:34] Amy: Yeah

[00:13:36] Royce: ta-taking up those issues more seriously.

[00:13:38] Amy: Just to rem- remind people is, um, it’s a blueprint really to- towards implementation, which I think kind of mirrors what we’re seeing in the, um, Santa Marta conference from this year, and the ongoing efforts there to, transition off of fossil fuels, and actually, like, start to figure out the nuts and bolts of what that looks like, what’s [00:14:00] required, how it might work, all of those kinds of things, which has mostly not been ever on the agenda at COP.

You know, people were excited after the, Abu Dhabi COP that the words fossil fuels were mentioned for the very first time in that process. But it seems like we’ve kind of gone backwards a little bit from that point, where now, you know, there’s more reticence.

[00:14:28] Royce: Yeah. And I mean, that was the first time they kind of named the problem, so to speak

[00:14:31] Amy: Yeah

[00:14:32] Royce: I mean, and, I mean, and that was agreed, and that still stands, right? So that hasn’t gone anywhere. It’s still there. It’s just that in recent years, there’s been, less willingness from certain parties to allow similar language back in or a strengthening of language. To explain this in, in very simple terms, like the two, long-running issues that cause the most tension and most fric-friction and frustration at COP is both, you know, the future of oil and gas and coal, and also this question around climate finance. And there are [00:15:00] two camps. Developed countries want to talk about mitigation and, you know, a managed phaseout of oil, gas and

[00:15:05] Amy: Yeah

[00:15:06] Royce: And developing countries say, “Hang on a minute. You guys agreed to do– to stump up the cash on climate finance before you talk about mitigation and this phaseout stuff. If you give the cash, we’ll do the mitigation. So where’s the cash that you promised us?

[00:15:19] Amy: Right

[00:15:20] Royce: that block of countries also includes the Arab block, and the Arab block, you know, have no– have a particular interest in maybe slowing that process

[00:15:27] Amy: Particularly Saudi Arabia, they have a reputation for a reason. Yes.

[00:15:32] Royce: Yes. And that is kind of the work that is beginning currently because those issues get worked out through negotiations. The electrification stuff that Turkiye is promoting is voluntary as part of the action agenda. It’s a good headline if they can get it, but the, the core part of it, uh, is the work around tho-like those two and other issues that get hammered out through negotiations.

So, the big question going forward is how will Australia in particular and Chris Bowen, who is in charge of overseeing that [00:16:00] conversation, how will they deal with it? Because that is a very tough hand to be dealt at this point.

[00:16:06] Amy: Yeah.

[00:16:07] Royce: Especially when the read seems to be that without the United States, you’re just not gonna get a, a transformative arrangement, uh, uh, you know, until, you know, Donald Trump leaves office,

[00:16:17] Amy: Yeah. Interesting. I was gonna ask you about that too, if there’s any sense from people there that like… I don’t know. It’s, in some ways, so like Americans who care about climate action were very excited about the midterm election results, right? There was a huge changeover of, um, Congress and the Senate, and that should mean that there’s less of a block around policy and things like that.

However, the fact remains that, um, you know, it’s not like Trump is gonna rejoin Paris or anything like that, right? So it’s almost, I almost wonder if it in some ways is worse for an international, um, negotiation like this where, [00:17:00] where it’s like, “Oh, well, if we just hang on for two years, then the US will be back in,” you know what I mean?

I don’t know. I’m curious how you’re hearing it spoken about.

[00:17:12] Royce: Absolutely. And I think that is the, that is the issue. I mean, I think, I think there is a long-running view that, uh, as was said, uh, in Brazil last year, that, you know, the US has pulled out

[00:17:25] Amy: Mhm.

[00:17:26] Royce: and the US itself can be quite obstructionist in many

[00:17:28] Amy: yeah, very much.

[00:17:29] Royce: so maybe without the US, there are new opportunities. However, I do agree that there is also a potential risk that reading the mid, midterms as a, as a win for climate,

[00:17:39] Amy: Yeah

[00:17:40] Royce: in some ways it was, does not change the current status of the US as a nation.

[00:17:44] Amy: Mhm.

[00:17:44] Royce: And basically, everyone’s wishing upon a return to n-return to normal, a return– a, a mean

[00:17:50] Amy: Yeah

[00:17:51] Royce: a return to average. And you’re assuming that if the US reenters Paris, it’s– the US is gonna act in the same [00:18:00] way when it’s quite possible the facts on the ground, as they are, have radically changed by the time the US decides to reenter and then re-resume a position as part of this process. I mean, we’re already seeing China, um, massively manufacture and sell, you know, just solar panels as the cheapest form of power.

EVs, you know, those are flooding the market across the

[00:18:18] Amy: Yeah

[00:18:18] Royce: There’s a question of whether China wants to play a more active role in this process. It hasn’t stepped up yet, but that it’s looking like it may in the future, and there’s signals that it might. and how– and there– and I think a lot of the– there’s a lot of diplomatic analysis based at least, like wishing and hanging on, uh, the– a hopeful future where, uh, Donald Trump leaves, uh, Democrats take

[00:18:43] Amy: Mhm.

[00:18:43] Royce: and US reenters this process, um, and everything will go back to the, the– everything will go back to normal. I, I suspect that that says a lot about the particular countries making that analysis and, um, and, and perhaps might be a misread of the global circumstances.

[00:18:59] Amy: Yeah. [00:19:00] Um,

[00:19:00] Royce: know

[00:19:02] Amy: I think there’s no way in which the Iran war is not having an impact on all of those things, right? Have you heard any kind of discussion around that or around, I don’t know, like volatility of oil prices in general, the kind of larger geopolitical situation that this COP is unfolding in, all that kind of thing?

[00:19:23] Royce: Well, that is, that is the interesting thing that’s supposed to feed into this electrification push, right? Because that’s supposed to kind of capture a lot of those anxieties and fears and concerns from countries. And for many observers, their elect-electrification stuff seemed like something that would have been non-controversial and a no-brainer and would have got

[00:19:40] Amy: Yeah

[00:19:40] Royce: But I think with European countries in particular, kind of being like, “Well, where’s the clean energy guys?” And kind of being a bit cooler on this process, then makes other countries go, “Well, why should we sign up to this voluntary commitment if, if Europe’s not going to?”

And, and then that then put that, that, that kind of, you know, makes the momentum much harder to get going.

[00:19:59] Amy: [00:20:00] Yeah

[00:20:00] Royce: And if Turkiye and Australia can’t get agreement on that, then that’s what should have been a pretty easy headline that has not been achieved. So that does not bode well for things going forward, you know. That said, it is no one’s interest to allow this process to fail. the goal is– again, the– seems to be the goal is everyone’s in survival mode, so they

[00:20:20] Amy: Yeah

[00:20:22] Royce: th-they want this to achieve something, even if it’s not nothing

[00:20:26] Amy: That makes sense. Um, okay, last thing I wanted to ask you about is protest. When we were in Brazil last year, like, the first thing we saw coming up to the blue zone was a massive protest, right? And then that led to s- just quite a lot of military police presence the rest of the time.

[00:20:44] Royce: Sure, sure was

[00:20:46] Amy: so yeah, I’m curious what you’re seeing in Turkiye.

[00:20:48] Royce: I think just off, off the bat, I mean, I haven’t seen any protests so far, hundred percent that I’ve been here, um, and certainly not on the scale of

[00:20:54] Amy: Mhm.

[00:20:56] Royce: I think part of that has been to do with the transport issue, frankly, ’cause if you cannot [00:21:00] get people to a place at a particular

[00:21:01] Amy: Perhaps a strategic move on behalf of the Turkish government. No, I don’t think so.

[00:21:08] Royce: I,

[00:21:08] Amy: Yeah.

[00:21:10] Royce: I actually think it’s just a kind of a, probably a happy by-product of something that they would… I, I ca- I also know that the Turkish government, uh, has, uh… It’s been said to me that they’ve been approaching this with a degree of perfectionism.

[00:21:21] Amy: Yeah.

[00:21:21] Royce: and they want to host the best possible party. Um, so I think the transport issues are a bit of an embarrassment that they would like to

[00:21:28] Amy: Yeah

[00:21:29] Royce: solve as quickly as possible, so people stop talking about it. Um, but even just to get into where the blue zone is

[00:21:34] Amy: Mhm.

[00:21:35] Royce: You have to cross a highway, across an, a bridge across a highway, and there are men with…

There are very heavily armed, uh, military guys sitting on that

[00:21:42] Amy: Interesting.

[00:21:43] Royce: the security process. And then you’ve got to get to the blue zone proper, um, uh, which is a, which has a kind of, uh, to Berlin. We had that, uh, period– We had that area which is like, which is just kept clear of all traffic and all

[00:21:57] Amy: Mhm.

[00:21:59] Royce: a, like an [00:22:00] exclusion zone

so there haven’t been any protests at the blue zone yet. Um, I haven’t had a chance to visit the green zone yet, so I don’t know what is planned or what might be happening elsewhere. But it’s the combination of logistical issues and, like, distance and s-some of the security setup

[00:22:14] Amy: Mhm.

[00:22:16] Royce: I would imagine has maybe some of that sort of society stuff, um, more difficult than might be, maybe was initially intended.

[00:22:23] Amy: Yeah. Just to unpack that for people who don’t know all of the COP terminology, the blue zone is where, like, the negotiations happen. It’s where the ministers are. You have to, like, have a special pass to go into the blue zone. The green zone is, the civil society space. It’s open to the public.

Anyone can go. There’s often a lot of, like, art and culture exhibits there, and it’s where a lot of the protests happen. But I know at, um, at, at Brazil they had, and I’ve seen this at other COPs too, that they’ve had, like, sort of specific… you know, you apply in advance to do an action, and then you’re given this, like, [00:23:00] s- assigned space, which is really funny to think about from a protest standpoint, but, like, um, this assigned time and space to do your action and, like, whatever.

Um, is that happening at this COP that you’ve seen, ?

[00:23:14] Royce: There is a lot of really interesting things about this where, um, part of this is, I think, perhaps even cultural. Whereas in Brazil

[00:23:21] Amy: Yeah

[00:23:22] Royce: It is kind of raucous and rowdy, and there’s, you know, multiple indigenous communities that, like, have been a, a long history of protests and are engaged.

And so they, they were willing to turn up. They, you know, kind of did that protest where they kind of stormed security at

[00:23:34] Amy: Yeah

[00:23:35] Royce: um, which, you know, which is very part of that kind of… I, I wanna say volatile, but it sound– that sounds like an insult. I don’t mean it that way.

[00:23:43] Amy: Robust. Robust dissent. Yes. Yeah

[00:23:48] Royce: Uh, whereas– and whereas here, I mean, and for instance, like when– in, in the same way that you can… Like I think in the past we’ve, we’ve talked about how the green zone is kept separate from the

[00:23:58] Amy: Ja

[00:23:58] Royce: you know, to kind of keep [00:24:00] the rowdy protesters and the civil society groups away from the serious

[00:24:03] Amy: Mhm, mhm.

[00:24:04] Royce: Um, you know, to get to the green zone, there is a transfer bus, and I haven’t yet caught it. I don’t know where it goes

[00:24:08] Amy: Yeah

[00:24:09] Royce: but it’s not here. Um, so I’m– I, I would be– I’m curious to see where the green zone is relative to this, but I haven’t laid eyes upon it

[00:24:17] Amy: Ja

[00:24:17] Royce: So there’s those factors as well. Um- And yeah, so it’s a, it’s a… Yes. So it remains to be seen how this is gonna… but then there are places within the blue zone. So for instance, there’s the classic, the NGOs and civil society groups do, a Fossil of the Day

[00:24:34] Amy: Oh yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah,

[00:24:36] Royce: yeah,

[00:24:36] Amy: yeah

[00:24:37] Royce: So last night there was a guy dancing around in a, you know, dinosaur bone costume doing the fossil for the day stuff.

[00:24:43] Amy: Ja.

[00:24:43] Royce: there is a bit of that going on in places as well, which is… So you might say that’s more managed opposition

[00:24:49] Amy: it’s,

[00:24:50] Royce: than some of what we’ve seen previously

[00:24:51] Amy: it’s more sort of like, you know, approved protest. Um,

[00:24:56] Royce: Yes

[00:24:57] Amy: Interesting. Okay. Well, excited [00:25:00] to catch up in a couple weeks and hear, hear about things as it’s wrapping up. And good luck with the, the transport woes. I hope it gets better. Thanks for, making the time

[00:25:15] Royce: No, no. Thank you for, for, for having me.