Three Climate Journalists Take on Digger | The Spill

Amy Westervelt: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. This is The Spill, our weekly news podcast where we talk about all kinds of things related to climate news and policy. But today, something a little more fun: culture. Uh, we’re gonna talk about the movie Digger, and I’m gonna tell you why in a minute. But first, introduce yourselves, ladies.

Tell the people who you are.

Alleen Brown: I’m Alleen Brown. I’m an editor and reporter for Drilled.

Nina Lakhani: I’m Nina Lakhani. I’m the global climate justice reporter.

Amy Westervelt: And I’m Amy Westervelt. King shit. No, I’m just kidding.

Alleen Brown: Hey.

Nina Lakhani: La jefa, as we say here in Mexico.

Amy Westervelt: Um, okay. So we’re gonna talk about this movie because, well, A) it’s a climate satire, so, you know, it’s something we probably would’ve gotten around to at some point anyway. But also it’s been kind of the topic of some discourse, because it has not been doing [00:01:00] well at the box office, and it’s been getting pretty well panned by critics as well.

So we thought it’d be a good time to talk about what we think of it, and kind of like its place in the, the sort of broader conversation of, of climate TV and film in general. Did we all just see it this weekend for this show? Yes. Okay. All right. All right.

Nina Lakhani: I mean, I loved it. I loved it. I really did. I didn’t think, I don’t think it’s the best movie ever made, but fine. Like, that’s a high bar. Um, I, um, laughed out loud, as did the packed Mexico City theater audience a lot of times. I thought

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Nina Lakhani: it was smart. It was funny. I mean, I think there were some scenes that were too long, but I literally

Amy Westervelt: Yeah.

Nina Lakhani: think that about every movie now.

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Nina Lakhani: Why does, why, why are no movies 90 minutes anymore? Like, that’s a broader sort of complaint. But yeah, I thought, I thought it was funny, and I think, thinking back to what the critics were saying about it just being too [00:02:00] scoldy and, you know, audiences are tired about hearing about how bad rich people are.

That, to me, wasn’t the movie. The movie was about our, the world’s reaction to these people and to what’s going on, and our, our, our ability and our need to normalize stuff that is not normal, you know.

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Nina Lakhani: I just thought, I thought it was, I thought it worked really well. I thought it was beautifully shot.

I

Amy Westervelt: It was really beautiful. I th- I thought so too. I was like, “This is so pretty.” Because it’s Iñárritu, right? This is, like, a very creative Mexican director who’s done some very cool movies throughout his career.

Nina Lakhani: Iñárritu was working with his, like, know, top Mexican team of, like, director of photography, like his visuals people, which gave it very much his style.

I felt like the color palette was incredible. Like,

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Nina Lakhani: the whole scene at the European Parliament just

Amy Westervelt: Yes. Oh my God, yes.

Nina Lakhani: Anyway, I would- for me, B, B+, old school [00:03:00] grading B+.

Amy Westervelt: Okay. All right.

Alleen Brown: okay.

Amy Westervelt: Alleen, what’d you think?

Alleen Brown: I loved it too, and I really

Amy Westervelt: Wow! Wow

Alleen Brown: didn’t expect to. I, and it’s possible, uh, you know, I have a little hater in my soul, and so the fact that so many people hated it so much

Amy Westervelt: Ah.

Alleen Brown: might have primed me to like it.

Amy Westervelt: Yes, yes

Alleen Brown: But also the little hater in my soul, like I thought it was like su- I thought it was super cynical, and I feel super cynical, and I don’t, you know, I feel like

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Alleen Brown: people were complaining about how like ugly and obnoxious the characters were, but it’s like, uh, like look around us right now.

Amy Westervelt: That’s the point.

Nina Lakhani: Yeah.

Alleen Brown: Things,

Nina Lakhani: Yeah

Alleen Brown: We’re dealing with cartoon characters, and they almost have to be a sort of like cartoonish level of grotesque to outmatch what we’ve already got. Um,

Nina Lakhani: I was like, “Hmm, I can think of a lot worse people in real life.” Do you know what I mean?

Amy Westervelt: Well, the thing

that’s, that’s [00:04:00] funny to me is that so I, like, made a conscious decision to not read any reviews or… And, like, tr- I tried as much as I could to stay away even from, like, social media discourse on it before I watched ’cause I didn’t even read the synopsis. I was like, “I just wanna go in cold and,

Alleen Brown: Yeah

Amy Westervelt: see what I think.”

And, um, and then I read stuff afterwards, and I was like, “Oh, that’s so funny that people thought that, like, um, that character was so over the top or this or that.” I mean, he was a little, but I was like, um, I feel like I’ve seen characters like that in every Tyler Sheridan show.

Alleen Brown: Right?

Amy Westervelt: And, you know, like I, I don’t know.

I’m like how is this different? Especially, like, a lot of the talking points and stuff were similar to, like, what you’ll hear in Landman or,

Alleen Brown: Yeah,

Amy Westervelt: I don’t know. Like, yeah, I don’t know.

Nina Lakhani: Or, or, or on Twitter by Elon Musk. I mean, literally, like, he didn’t say anything that I hadn’t heard before from these crazy fucking tech bros that wanna live forever [00:05:00] and want their —

Amy Westervelt: Yeah.

Nina Lakhani: Do you know what I mean? It’s — it didn’t seem outlandish to me.

Amy Westervelt: Yeah, like the cat. Okay.

Nina Lakhani: outlandish to

Amy Westervelt: I did… Okay, so the, there’s, there’s, um, there are a few th- like, we’re gonna have some spoilers in this, so if you… This is a good point to say that if you have not seen Digger and you want to, maybe pause

Nina Lakhani: You should!

Amy Westervelt: The, the episode and go watch it, and then come back

Alleen Brown: Yes,

Amy Westervelt: and listen to the rest because, um, let’s talk about the cat, ’cause it start, like the

Nina Lakhani: Love.

Alleen Brown: What did, okay, wait, Amy, I wanna talk about the cat, but did you love it, hate it, in between? I want your overall picture first.

Amy Westervelt: I think I’m in the B+ too. I thought it was really be- like the, I thought, I really liked how, I don’t know, I just, I felt like it was like Mexican surrealism, the like, the way it looked the whole time, which I really loved. I actually was like, there were a few moments where I did think it was like, you know, like a little bit ham-fisted where it could have been subtle.

But, um, I also find [00:06:00] Tom Cruise very annoying in general in every movie. And I was thinking about, like before we watched it, Alleen was like, “I just hope that Tom Cruise ends up like jumping around and doing weird acrobatics.” And he did. He did not disappoint on that.

Nina Lakhani: Um, mean, I’m, I’m no Tom Cruise fan apart from Cocktail, which I loved.

Amy Westervelt: Of course. Of course.

Yeah

Nina Lakhani: liked a Co- I’ve never liked a Tom Cruise, uh, performance since. I thought he was excellent.

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Nina Lakhani: I honestly did, because I think it, actually for him and his need to be, like, the center of everything and every second actually worked really well in this

Amy Westervelt: I know. It did

Nina Lakhani: Yeah.

Amy Westervelt: It also is like one of those movies that like there were things that like … I think it was really smart ’cause there were things that like made sense only at the end of the movie, right? Or only like halfway through or three-quarters. Like the opening I was like, “Oh, this is cool.

It looks like a, um, you know, like a stage opening.” And then it’s like, oh, because … So [00:07:00] we’ll talk about the reveal. What you find out like pretty far into the movie is that these people you’ve been watching are staging a play, and they are … So there’s this very like, you know, breaking the, what is it? The fourth wall kind of thing.

And, um, and you’re seeing all of a sudden like three different stories unfold where you’ve got like the play, you’ve got, um, this weird producer who … That, I think he was my favorite character actually, was, um, what’s his name? The …

Alleen Brown: Jessie Plemons.

Amy Westervelt: Yes. God, he was so good. He didn’t even have that many lines, but I really liked him as a character.

There’s one line that he delivers where all the actors and the director are arguing about like how best to tell this story. And like the Tom Cruise character is like, “This isn’t even true to life.” And the k- the director is like whatever, and I’m like, “Oh man, I feel like I’ve totally seen and/or been a part of those arguments myself.”

And his whole p- [00:08:00] his point was like, “Yes, you’re all right, and like it doesn’t like it d- it doesn’t matter,” you know? Yeah.

Alleen Brown: So my theory is that Iñárritu was, like, making this movie for what, like, a decade or something, and

Amy Westervelt: Yes

Alleen Brown: he must have been bombarded with the type of, like, climate narrative disputes that we have

Amy Westervelt: Yep

Alleen Brown: heard a million times that are utterly d- exhausting,

Amy Westervelt: Yeah.

Alleen Brown: and also this, like, sort of policing about how the story should be told and, like, what kind of story is gonna, like, spur action, and, “Oh my God, we need Hollywood to do more climate narratives.”

And I’m sure he was just, like, completely immersed in this, and at a certain

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Alleen Brown: point it’s like, okay, but this is, like, farcical, the idea that, that making this movie is gonna be what, like, changes people’s minds about the climate

Amy Westervelt: Yes!

Alleen Brown: and, like, saves the world. Like, no, it’s just not.[00:09:00]

Amy Westervelt: Yeah.

Alleen Brown: so part of my exhaustion coming into the movie is like, okay, I’m watching this.

I’m watching a climate movie. Like, despite being a climate reporter, I’m like, okay, we’re doing this thing.

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Alleen Brown: then when it’s like, okay, no, we’re stepping back and we’re, like, reflecting on the limitations to narrative, um,

Amy Westervelt: Yeah.

Alleen Brown: that was interesting to me,

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Alleen Brown: and like, you know, I think this is the, the climate crisis and the way things are unfolding, it is, like, there is a narrative war going on,

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Alleen Brown: but, I feel like in the end this movie was about, okay, what happens when no, like, we’re already there, you know?

Which n- you could say we already are, you know? Like, at the end, the cri- the b- breakdown has already happened. The movie is on- you know, the movie is just helping people,

Amy Westervelt: Process it.

Alleen Brown: process their feelings. And yeah

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Nina Lakhani: to, I mean to me th- that [00:10:00] was, that was the vehicle of it, right? That actually what we’re now experiencing is a fucking farce, that we’ve allowed this to happen, and that we’re here is the farce, right? Like,

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Nina Lakhani: sort of let … We’ve just, you know, every day just got a little bit more normalized to, like, what’s going on and just been, “Oh, a massive glacier has broken off Nep- the coast, um,

Amy Westervelt: Ja

Nina Lakhani: of Nepal and, like, thousands of people are buried.” “Oh, okay, next day, let’s talk about something else.” I mean, it is farcical and, like, that we’ve allowed that to happen, and I think that’s what he just leans into. … I went with, like, “Oh, God,” you know. As a climate reporter, it’s the last thing I want to do in my spare time.

I just thought it was an excellent, I ju- I just thought it was an excellent movie, right? My favorite character was, well, I love, Riz Ahmed is one of my favorite actors — British actors, and

Amy Westervelt: I love him. He was so good in that. Yes. Yes

Nina Lakhani: he was so good, like, you know. Um, and, um, that scene when l- that army general or the chief of staff, he was like, “No, but where are you really from?” “No, no, no, America, Boston.” “No, but really, where are you really [00:11:00] from?” Like, I was just like, “Yeah.”

Amy Westervelt: Yeah.

Nina Lakhani: g- that was a good hit on the nose.

Amy Westervelt: Yeah. He was, yeah, he was great.

Um, I realize that we started talking about the cat and then, um, and then shifted gears. But I do think, like one of the reasons… Okay, so this is like this very, you know, farcical thing where this, this old oil tycoon has this cat that he’s been like keeping alive in various ways for, you know, way past the length of a normal cat’s life.

I think it’s supposed to be like 30 years old or something.

Nina Lakhani: 34.

Amy Westervelt: Yeah, and it’s clear-

Nina Lakhani: I think it was 34.

Amy Westervelt: It’s like half dead, and it’s like v- this very obvious like animatronic cat too, so it’s like, it’s ridiculous. But I think it’s like a good… I don’t know. I was like, like later kind of chuckling that I’m like, oh yeah, like it’s, a- again, like another example of like not dealing with reality, you know?

Like, just being… And thinking, like that character in particular is so like, “I can bend reality to my will.” [00:12:00] And like he really keeps believing that right up until the end when he’s like thinks that he’s just, you know, magicked up food in the fridge for everyone, and, uh, you know, he hasn’t. But

Nina Lakhani: Yeah

Amy Westervelt: he really believes in like his power to do that, which I…

Like, you totally meet people like that. I mean, the tech bros are all like that,

Alleen Brown: Yes.

Nina Lakhani: Well,

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Nina Lakhani: I mean, and, and that’s, and that’s the point. It’s like you’re just, yes, there’s a sort of, um, you know, the magical re- you know, reality, of it all, but also the fact that, you know, the, the key villains that are doing their, you know, like extracting all the wealth and ruining the planet are counting on the fact that they’ll be still living in their bunkers with their families and their friends, right?

When we’re all fucked and we’re all gone, you know? So I think it was like

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Nina Lakhani: both worked as a metaphor, but also just actually this is exactly what they’re doing. Like they’re co- they’re counting on this

Amy Westervelt: Well, and in a way, like, that ends up kinda being true, right? ‘Cause, like, the producer guy who’s [00:13:00] seems like he’s doing fine while everyone else is struggling is, like, the grandson of the oil tycoon you know? Like … Yeah

Alleen Brown: You know, coming back to the, like, kind of cynicism of the movie and s- again, something speaking to my own cynicism, um, look, like I think climate accountability journalism is really important. That’s what we’re all here for.

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Alleen Brown: But one of… at the end of the play, the, you know, oil billionaire is off at sea.

He’s been abandoned. Like, everyone hates him, and he, like, he commits suicide. You know, his life is ended. You, the audience, like, laughs as they watch him drown in the sea,

Amy Westervelt: And cheers. They’re like, “Yes, fuck that guy.” Yeah.

Alleen Brown: so in a way, it’s like a fantasy of accountability. Like, he f- he got his, but at the end of the movie, everybody, like, walks out and has to put on their, like, nuclear gas masks.

[00:14:00] And, and to your point, um, the, the grandson of the oil billionaire is actually funding the, the, the play.

Amy Westervelt: So funny. Yeah

Nina Lakhani: this, th-th-this to me, to me the ending was, like, the cherry on top of the cake, right? Because I thought it, it was brilliant because first of all, you have this standing ovation, right? And we can talk about how we’ve seen this in relation to Palestine, for example. Crowds at fil- at film festivals standing up and cheering a film about an existential, you know, the climate crisis, the genocide or whatever, and then they go out and everything’s back to normal, right?

And so, and like, you know, that, that play was like the, it was a celebration of the 25th anniversary of a cult play. So 25 years have passed. The whole audience is up standing, and then they put on, you know, they go out into this dystopian sort of environment, and I’m like, that’s literally what we’re doing right now. Like,

Alleen Brown: Mm-hmm.

Nina Lakhani: We cheer, we’re cheering about, like, you know, we [00:15:00] celebrate amazing pieces of art, which we should, about something, and yet, you know,

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Nina Lakhani: he was saying, “But, uh, is anything gonna change? Probably not,” you know.

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Nina Lakhani: I think it was a recognition by, by Iñárritu that, you know, that actually, you know, people are just gonna get back on with their lives whether they like this or not.

Amy Westervelt: Yeah. Yeah. I know. I had heard, like, some people had, um, complained about the fact that, like, um, there’s this, this scene where he’s, like, speaking, uh, in the European Parliament, right? Which I, I thought was excellent. Like, so well done. And, um, I saw some people, uh, criticizing it saying, you know, “Oh,” like, “it went the direction of Landman where it, like, had this guy, you know, saying like, ‘Well, you all need oil and gas,’ and da, da, da, da.”

And I’m like, I don’t… I mean, to me it was very clear that, like, that was being said in a very cynical way and that it was, you know, not trying to actually sell the audience, like, of Iñárritu’s [00:16:00] movie on that point. Um, like, to me that was super clear, but

Alleen Brown: Totally agree. Yeah.

Nina Lakhani: Yeah, I think

Alleen Brown: I was confused about those, um, those reviews that are like, “Oh, it’s so scolding.” It was like, but that, and it was mostly focused on that scene. It was like, no, but that is literally the narrative of the industry, that it’s all, like, consumers’ demand that’s driving this.

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Nina Lakhani: It, uh, but it actually drove home a key point I think, that actually when we’re talking about accountability, in that scene is specifically pointing the finger at our elected officials and the role they play,

Amy Westervelt: Yes.

Nina Lakhani: right?

In this,

Amy Westervelt: That was so good, I thought. Yeah,

Nina Lakhani: Yeah.

Amy Westervelt: “Look, all of you have, like, enabled this too.” Yeah. Yeah

Nina Lakhani: I mean, they are the enablers, right? I

Amy Westervelt: Mm-hmm

Nina Lakhani: mean, they are the, you know, there’s many enablers around why we’re in this, but no one more than our political leaders, our elected officials, you know?

And

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Nina Lakhani: I thought that was, to me, the point of that scene. I did think it went on a bit too long, that particular scene. But

Amy Westervelt: I did feel that [00:17:00] way.

Alleen Brown: It was a little bit like ok, “we get it, director.”

Amy Westervelt: Yeah, yeah.

Alleen Brown: Also, one other thought about Tom Cruise

Amy Westervelt: Ya.

Alleen Brown: In this role. I actually loved that he was cast for this, not only I think he, you know, played the role well, but also he is this, like, dark figure of… I, I watched Going Clear this weekend.

Amy Westervelt: Oh, that’s a good, that’s a good double header. Yeah

Alleen Brown: This man is being controlled by this weirdo cult that’s, like, torturing people.”

And, um, I thought, like, that just kind of added to,

Amy Westervelt: Yeah.

Alleen Brown: I don’t know that this was the intent, but, like, this commentary about it all being so rotten to the core, um, the fact that he would be the main character felt, like,

Amy Westervelt: Yeah.

Alleen Brown: perfect to me. I was like, yes.

Amy Westervelt: Yeah.

Like, this was very on the nose that, like, um, shortly before it ended, my phone and everyone else’s phone in the… I saw it in Valencia, was like, “Whoop, whoop,” um, with, like, an alert for flooding in Valencia.[00:18:00]

Alleen Brown: Hmm. Perfect. Yeah. Spot on.

Amy Westervelt: Too on the nose. Yeah, yeah. Everybody was like

Nina Lakhani: Oh my God, I’m

Amy Westervelt: yeah.

[midroll]

Nina Lakhani: Way, I, I feel like this is the, this is, like, the first, like, big climate sort of, you know, Hollywood movie I’ve seen since, um, Adam McKay’s Don’t Look Up. Um, and I was just reading again the review I wrote for that, you

Alleen Brown: Mm-hmm.

Nina Lakhani: back at, uh, uh, back then. Um, I, I, I thought this was much better.

Like, I really did. I thought, you know, Digger was much better. I thought it was smarter.

I think it was sort of, um, y- yeah, it wasn’t, it wasn’t as trying as hard

Alleen Brown: Yeah. Yeah.

Nina Lakhani: just thought it made it a better movie generally. Like, what did you guys think?

Alleen Brown: I, I felt Don’t Look Up up back somewhat

Nina Lakhani: Up? Is

Amy Westervelt: Yeah.

Nina Lakhani: can’t remember.

Alleen Brown: close enough. We get the point.

Nina Lakhani: Oasis song. It’s like the Oasis song. Keep that in your

Alleen Brown: Um, yes.

Nina Lakhani: head.

Alleen Brown: I thought the thing about Don’t Look Up is, [00:19:00] like, it just, it feels much more earnest to me,

I think for that moment maybe it made sense and, um, I don’t think it was a bad movie necessarily, but this resonated

Nina Lakhani: It wasn’t bad.

Alleen Brown: With me much more

Amy Westervelt: You know what’s funny is that I feel like, um, I feel like a lot of people took this earnestly when it wasn’t meant that way.

Alleen Brown: Yes, totally.

Amy Westervelt: Like,

Alleen Brown: totally.

Amy Westervelt: I was like, “Oh, that’s, like, you guys missed the joke.”

Like, he was making fun of what you’re… Like, you thought he was, like, trying to do the thing that actually he was making fun of, I think.

Nina Lakhani: It, yeah, it was so funny. And I, and I th- I think Don’t Look Up, I think you’re right, Alleen, it was like maybe the mo- movie for the moment. And that,

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Nina Lakhani: just thinking about, that was also panned by critics but did really well at the box office. It was a Netflix movie, right?

And it was like the third-biggest mo- you know, most watched movie of i- in, in Netflix history at the time. I think looking back at it now, you can see that a climate or accountability reporter was part [00:20:00] of that movie making. Do you know what I mean?

Amy Westervelt: yeah

Alleen Brown: Right. Totally

Nina Lakhani: I think, um, and, and I think that, I mean, I’m sure they had consultants that were climate experts and stuff in the, in Digger, but I feel like it just felt like a movie to me.

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Nina Lakhani: I mean, I mean, movies, it- it’s the entertainment business. They have to be entertaining, right? Like, you know, whatever the message is.

Amy Westervelt: It was so creative. I just thought it was really creative. So actually, okay, Adam McKay, this is like part of why I was like, “Oh, we should see this movie and talk about it.” He on, um, social media was like pissed that people, you know, were criticizing this movie. And like one of the things he said, so I’m curious what you guys think about this as just, um, a, like a, an operating theory in general.

He kind of intimated that like if you care about climate and if you wanna see m- like climate make its way into more culture like TV and film and whatever, that you should support like climate films when they [00:21:00] come out, you know? He was kind of… It was a little bit like, why didn’t people show up for this movie?

‘Cause this movie was wildly expensive, right? It took 10 years. It was

Nina Lakhani: 200 million.

Amy Westervelt: $200 million. And I think the first weekend at the box office it cleared like 9 million, which is really bad for a film of that size starring Tom Cruise, all of that, right? Um, so he was kind of like, “Oh, all these like, you know, armchair critics are like panning this movie, and they don’t get it, and also like people should show up to support stuff like this.”

And, and kind of like, because it is true. Like I think this happened when, I don’t know if you guys watched the Apple show Extrapolations when it came out. Ugh, I really didn’t like it. I’m sorry. Sorry.

Alleen Brown: I’m like, should I?

Amy Westervelt: Hashtag sorry to all the people who made it. But it was a similar kind of thing where it had this massive budget and had so many famous people in it.

It was like Meryl Streep, and I mean, just like so every famous person had… you know, was in one of these episodes, and it just didn’t do [00:22:00] well. And so for a good couple years after that, all the studios were like, “Ugh,” like nobody wants to see these shows and films, right? And so I think the concern is that like that will happen again because this film didn’t do well.

But like, yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know what you guys think about that.

Nina Lakhani: Well, I’m, um, maybe, I mean, I, I think we should support, um, people’s efforts. I like, I like… Do you know what I mean? Like, I mean, we, you know, culture and artists have always, there’s always been c- um, artists that have responded to different types of challenges and social injustices, things they see around them in the world,

Amy Westervelt: Yeah.

Nina Lakhani: and others that haven’t,

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Nina Lakhani: and we want that, right? We want, you know, we want our authors and painters and musicians and filmmakers, right? To respond to that. that, that’s, that, there is a difference between that and supporting and encouraging that, and saying we have to like everything.

Amy Westervelt: Right

Nina Lakhani: I come back to the point,

Alleen Brown: Right

Nina Lakhani: enter- it’s, it’s gotta be entertaining, right? You know, Alleen and I went [00:23:00] to see, um, Neil Young in, on Long Island last year.

Alleen Brown: Yes.

Nina Lakhani: I, I, I love Ne- the ultimate, the ultimate protest artist, who by the way said Digger was the best film he’s ever seen.

Amy Westervelt: Ja

Nina Lakhani: Um, but you know, but we went to see him —

Amy Westervelt: So funny

Nina Lakhani: right? After, after Neil Young had just released his latest album, which was not good, I’m just gonna say. S- still, protesting, still angry, lacking in tunes. But like, um, you know, we, me and Alleen were quite worried that he was gonna play, like, this whole new album.

He didn’t, but I was so disappointed he didn’t play Let’s Roll Again, which is his song about electric vehicles.

Alleen Brown: Yeah

Nina Lakhani: It’s sort of like, it’s, i- it’s, i- it’s, it adapts the melody of Woody Guthrie’s This Land Is Your Land, and it has the classic line, “If you’re a fascist, then get a Tesla.” And it was, it’s so good.

It’s so good.

Alleen Brown: Oh my God, incredible

Nina Lakhani: I was… It’s such an anthem, and he [00:24:00] didn’t play it. We were gutted. But you know that, for example, when he wrote that song, but also a couple years before that, he’d written a song called Big Crime about Trump. They were not very good songs, but they ma- You know, because it’s Neil Young, and he was, like, reacting to injustices and things that are going on, he didn’t just make the news, he didn’t just make The Guardian and LA Times, et cetera.

He was, you know, big story in Variety, Rolling Stone,

Amy Westervelt: Yeah.

Nina Lakhani: And it’s like, that has to be a good thing, right? Like, you’re trying to engage people in something. You’re not just gonna do it through documentaries and news, right?

Amy Westervelt: yeah.

Nina Lakhani: I don’t know.

Amy Westervelt: Yeah. Yeah

Alleen Brown: Yeah. I think, I mean, this idea that you should go see a climate movie just because it’s a climate movie. I mean, I actually like Digger, so I think people should see it because it’s interesting and, um, but if it was a bad movie, um, if there wasn’t anything interesting happening there, I don’t personally feel [00:25:00] like I would have any obligation to go see it.

If, if the, if the only point in doing a movie that has a climate narrative is that you want it to, like, be a blockbuster hit, like, w- at what point are we starting to, like, be talking about propaganda, you know?

Amy Westervelt: Right. Where’s the line there?

Alleen Brown: I don’t wanna wa- I mean, that’s not interesting to me. Like, um, if it’s, like, art about, um, it’s a- art about the climate crisis and it makes me think about it in a, a new, in a new way, I’m interested in that.

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Alleen Brown: I do think music is a little different because there is something inherently cathartic about listening to even, like, goofy ass, um political m- music.

Like, um, I’m from Minneapolis, the Bruce, Bruce Springsteen Streets of Minneapolis song, I personally think it is quite corny, but I love to walk around being like, “In the streets of Minneapolis.” Like, [00:26:00] it makes me feel good. Um, so I think there’s something different about music and, and the value that that has where it comes to stuff and, um, but yeah.

I don’t know. What do you think, Amy?

Amy Westervelt: Um, I don’t know. I’m really torn between the idea of this as, like, um, like a solidarity move, you know, of like, all right, I’m gonna, like, give it a shot because there isn’t a lot of this stuff getting made, and, like, I do want there to be enough of a variety that there can be, like, a spectrum, like almost every other… I mean, we have how many, like, documentaries about f- fraudulent tech people at the moment?

Like,

Alleen Brown: Oh my God, seriously!

Amy Westervelt: There’s, like, many, you know? Um, so I’m, I’m, like, annoyed that there isn’t more, but I also, like, I just don’t love the idea of, like, um… I sort of chafe at it, but at the same time I’m like, well, the only reason that that conversation’s even happening is that, like, there’s so few of these [00:27:00] things getting made that, like, every one that doesn’t do well gets held up as the reason for, like, five more not to get made, you know?

Um, yeah.

Nina Lakhani: I mean, I do think there’s a difference though, between, um, the creative process and creating art and solidarity.

Amy Westervelt: Yeah. Yeah, that’s true

Nina Lakhani: like ex- expecting our artists, uh, to, express and show solidarity. And I think, you know, I think Palestine’s a really good example of this because it’s, you know, it’s taken 70-plus years and a genocide, but now it is completely unacceptable for anyone, any artist in any genre to be silent on Palestine,

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Nina Lakhani: and I think, you know, and, and you know, are we gonna get to the point where the cl- you know, climate change, which is like, uh, the existential threat to the whole planet becomes that issue. Like we’re a long, long way from that, you

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Nina Lakhani: know, but I do think Palestine is an interesting example. I mean, like, you

Amy Westervelt: That’s an interesting way to think about it. Yeah. [00:28:00] Yeah. Sorry, you were saying kne- kneecap?

Nina Lakhani: no, I just say, yeah, Kneecap, a group that started out with really about, you know, revitalizing or reclaiming the Irish language and talking about British colonialism, and have become incredibly important spokespeople in Palestine. I mean, one of the group members was charged under the terrorism act

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Nina Lakhani: in, in the UK, you know.

Um, and then actually they were in Mexico City last week playing, and they were interviewed by Chilango Radio, and it was super interesting ’cause he asked them, “Look, you’ve traveled to all these different places in the world, like, what, what place have you liked best? What have you learned?” And their answer was actually about how much they’ve learned from indigenous people and First Nations people around the

Amy Westervelt: Yep

Nina Lakhani: world and they talk just in, like, quite a clumsy way, but they talk– he talked about, you know, Indigenous people and natural resources and how climate change is making that much harder. And I just thought this is a

Amy Westervelt: Awesome. That’s awesome.

Nina Lakhani: huge step,

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Nina Lakhani: that is about him, someone, a group that is hugely influential right now, making connections between [00:29:00] colonialism and what’s happening in Ireland and Palestine with natural resources and climate change,

Amy Westervelt: That’s awesome

Nina Lakhani: and it is a step-by-step process, and I think that, you know, like, we want more of that from that from our culture, right? Like, we want, you know, we want art to be inspired by climate change and climate, cli- whatever, like, you know, villains or whatever. But the solidarity I think is really important as well.

Amy Westervelt: Yeah. Yeah. Um, I wanna ask each of you if there is a piece of content, either about climate or, like, another sort of, like, social justice or, like, socially aware, you know, movie or f- film or song or whatever that you, like, genuinely like and recommend and, like, you know, would tell people to go and check out.

Alleen Brown: Um, well, there’s so many good movies out right now, and so I’ll just go with a couple that I saw recently, um, over this very weekend. Um, so one was History of Concrete,[00:30:00]

Amy Westervelt: Oh.

Alleen Brown: the John Wilson documentary

Amy Westervelt: Is it good? I really wanna see it. Yes.

Alleen Brown: I will say. I will say it’s, it’s about concrete, and is one that I have to s- I’m sorry, John Wilson, I think this could’ve been a little shorter.

There was a point where I’m like, “Okay, I f- I get it. I get it. Concrete, wow.”

Amy Westervelt: Yeah.

Alleen Brown: but then, like, there’s some twists and turns, and it becomes, like, really hilarious. Like, you know, you ultimately get to that, like, uh, for people who watched How To with John Wilson, like, you meet these, like, characters that take these turns that you really don’t expect.

And I have to say, it’s, like, not on its face an environmental movie, but, um, making concrete is one of the biggest contributors to, you know, carbon emissions, and, uh,

Nina Lakhani: And water shortages,

Alleen Brown: Yeah, it’s terrible for the environment. And, like, you know, the, the story of concrete really starts with, with John, John Wilson’s basement flooding, um, all the time.[00:31:00]

Amy Westervelt: interesting. So there’s like ways that it comes in. Yeah

Alleen Brown: Yeah, and like, um, the environmental impact of, like, the dust for concrete recycling is, um, comes into the narrative. And it, like, it just kind of keeps creeping. These environmental questions keep kind of, like, popping up, but not in a, like, super in-your-face way.

But in this way, again, that feels very like How To with John Wilson, where it kind of, like, changed the way I see the city. Now I’m like, “Oh, concrete everywhere. It’s just, like, ruining the world. It’s just gonna fall apart.” And also, like, all those little dots all over the place are gum, and I didn’t wanna know that.

Um, it’s, uh, uh, it’s really gross. Um, the other one that I saw, another documentary that hopefully will have wider distribution at some point, but it’s this film called The Great Experiment. Um, and it’s these two filmmakers, uh, Steve Maing and, um, Eric Metzger. Um, it’s really about, like, the four, Trump’s [00:32:00] first four years in office

Amy Westervelt: Oh

Alleen Brown: and it’s kind of like they’re traveling around the US.

It’s in black and white. It’s very beautifully shot. And, um, it’s just, like, kind of, uh, filming people from both sides of this, like, polarized United States, um, of, of that era, which now feels sort of like vintage. And I’m like,

Amy Westervelt: Wow

Alleen Brown: it was a weird kind of, like, trauma/nostalgia/wasn’t that quaint. Um, but yeah.

And again, like, climate change is not necessarily at the center, but there’s this really… Y- they do a good job of sort of humanizing people on either end of the spectrum. So there’s this, like, protest scene where these Antifa kids, like, run into each other, and then they’re just, like, chit-chatting. And you’re like, “Oh, you guys are just like kids.”

Amy Westervelt: Normal kids. Yeah

Alleen Brown: The way that they’re interacting is really kind of endearing and, you know. But one of them goes on a rant about the climate crisis, and I was like, “Wow, this is very accurate.” Um, so [00:33:00] um, okay, I wanna say something about Armageddon,

Amy Westervelt: Okay.

Alleen Brown: and then I wanna hear what other people have to say.

Amy Westervelt: The movie Armageddon starring Ben Affleck? Okay.

Alleen Brown: Yes, starring Ben Affleck, who enjoyed Digger, I hear.

Amy Westervelt: Oh, interesting. Okay. Mm-hmm.

Alleen Brown: Okay. I don’t know if you guys have seen that movie recently.

Amy Westervelt: It’s been a while.

Alleen Brown: I was sick and I had norovirus,

So I was deeply ill watching Armageddon on TV in a hotel room, and, um, I did not realize what a, like, win that must have been for the oil industry, you know?

Like, these oil drillers go to an asteroid and save the Earth by drilling into

Amy Westervelt: By drilling.

Alleen Brown: the astr- like, and I don’t think, I don’t know that there was industry funding for that, but in that moment in time, the makers of that movie were like, “This is what will resonate with America.” And I don’t think that that would be made in the same way now, or if it was, it would [00:34:00] be, like, clearly with an idea of appealing to a certain set of the population.

Like, to me, watching that, I’m like, I think things have changed a little bit, where I

Amy Westervelt: It’s interesting

Alleen Brown: I don’t know that that would have… ‘Cause that wasn’t, I don’t think anyone saw that and was like, “Wow, this is so political.” But, like, watching it now, I’m like, it kinda is. And,

Nina Lakhani: what, what year was that? What year did that come out, Jan?

Alleen Brown: I don’t remember. I can look it up right now

Nina Lakhani: I’ve, I’ve never seen it, but I bet you one of Drilled’s very smart listeners will know whether there was fossil fuel funding in that

Amy Westervelt: We’re gonna get an email. Yes.

Nina Lakhani: Please write in and tell us to save us some Googling. That’d be really good.

Alleen Brown: 1998, that was the year.

Amy Westervelt: Oh, wow. So right after Kyoto, of course there was oil money. Yes. Yes

Alleen Brown: We need an, we need to do an investigation perhaps.

Amy Westervelt: Oh my God, yes. I had never thought about it, but you’re right. We gotta revisit the movie Armageddon in that context. That’s so funny. All right, Nina, do you [00:35:00] have any?

Nina Lakhani: Yeah. Um, I’m gonna just mention a couple of, um, movies on Palestine, ’cause everyone’s talking about Naza.

Amy Westervelt: Gonna go see it on Wednesday, I think. Yeah. I’m excited

Nina Lakhani: Take a, take a handkerchief. Um, uh, I mean, two movies that I think ho- were, didn’t get the same attention but should have: No Other Land, which actually I saw with Alleen when we were neighbors.

Alleen Brown: Yes.

Amy Westervelt: Mm-hmm.

Nina Lakhani: um, and, and that is a documentary, and it’s not, I mean, it’s not about the climate crisis, but it absolutely is on the, you know, it’s about Israel’s ecocide and environmental destruction of the occupied West Bank, which was abs- which was brilliant. Um, and The Voice of Hind Rajab, which was a dramatization of the real-life events of a little, uh, five-year-old Hind Rajab, Hind Rajab, who was murdered by Israel, and it was un- But I mean, both of them were brilliant films, are, are brilliant films, and people should go and see them.

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Nina Lakhani: and just one old-school recommendation. I’m actually [00:36:00] read- I’m reading right now the autobiography of Sinead O’Connor,

Alleen Brown: Ooh.

Nina Lakhani: fantastic Irish, um, singer. I’ve tried. And she, I mean, she wrote a lot of, she often wrote songs that w- music that was, you know, like, um, you know, a reaction to what was going on, and she has a beautiful song called, Black Boys on Mopeds, and it was a story of these Black boys that were, um, killed by police in the UK during the Thatcher r- um, Thatcher, um, administration, and it’s just a beautiful song. Um, yeah, everyone should listen to it.

Amy Westervelt: Fun fact, the song Nothing Compares To You is actually a ballad to Mother Earth. I’m totally kidding. I’m totally kidding. It’s not.

Alleen Brown: Oh, uh, Pr- I’m pretty sure Prince wrote

Amy Westervelt: Prince did write that.

Alleen Brown: A

Amy Westervelt: Prince did write that, and she covered it. But it is my karaoke song, and that is true.

Nina Lakhani: What about you,

Amy Westervelt: Mine is, is actually a, a cli- like, it’s a climate show, and I, I keep talking about it to everyone because very few people have seen it, but I think it’s so fucking good.

Just [00:37:00] dealing with my cat here. Um,

Nina Lakhani: How old is she? 32?

Amy Westervelt: She’s 32, and she’s still going strong. It’s called Families Like Ours, and it’s by this Danish, um, filmmaker. Actually, like, he was… I don’t know if you guys were film nerds in, in the two- in, like, the early 2000s, but there was this group of filmmakers called the Dogme filmmakers.

It was, like, Lars von Trier and, I don’t know. They were all like, “We’re gonna not use CGI, and we’re gonna, like, you know, only shoot on real film,” and all of that kind of thing. And, um, this guy was one of them, and he made one of my all-time favorite movies. It’s called The Celebration. It’s about a very dysfunctional family, uh, like, getting together for, you know, the patriarch’s birthday or whatever.

Anyway, this show is like… in the first two minutes, you learn that, like, the, the basic premise is that the country of Denmark has [00:38:00] decided that rather than continue to spend money on building up sea walls and stuff, they’re gonna just use all of the money left in their coffers to, like, re- like, rehouse everyone in other places and, like, shut down the country.

And so the whole… Like, it’s a whole, like, family drama, and there’s all this stuff going on, but the backdrop is that they are climate refugees, but they’re, like, rich, white, European climate refugees, which is, like, not what we’re used to seeing. And it’s… I think it’s, like, maybe one of the smartest climate things I’ve seen.

I’m like, “Wow, this person, like, really knew what they were talking about in a way that, like, allowed it to be very detailed but not be, like, the central thing that’s being talked about.” You know what I mean? It’s like, just… It’s actually, like, I keep thinking about it in the context of Nina’s series that’s coming out next month, ’cause it’s all about displacement

and also, yeah, like, it really had me thinking about, like, who we tend to [00:39:00] see in those roles on TV and who we don’t. Um, ah, like, I… Yeah, it’s highly recommend. It’s good. Yeah.

Nina Lakhani: You know, yes, it’s really important for us to sort of be highlighting and telling the stories of people from, like, the, you know, from really vulnerable communities who are at the forefront of climate change.

But we can’t, know, telling, you know, making it out that climate refugees are all brown and Black people, are the same victims that everyone can just turn their, close their eyes

Amy Westervelt: that it’s like, “Oh, that’s so sad that those people will have to deal with that,” right? Like, that’s, that is, like, a thing that people do. So yeah. Yeah, I thought it was, it was really smart.

I think these are my favorite kinds of shows, is when you can tell that, like, someone in the writing room had, like, a huge level of detailed knowledge about something. Like, this is why I thought Silicon Valley was good, is, like, they clearly had people who, like, really knew that community, and so the jokes were so specific that they worked really well.

And that’s, like… I think this [00:40:00] show is like that too.

Nina Lakhani: That’s the geek in you, Amy

Amy Westervelt: Yeah, it is.

Nina Lakhani: you.

Amy Westervelt: Yes. Yes.

Nina Lakhani: knows? Um

Amy Westervelt: Yeah. Anyway, all right. Well, any…

Nina Lakhani: This has been fun.

Amy Westervelt: This has been fun.

I would say, um, send us an email if you have a show or a movie that you wanna suggest, because I feel like we’re gonna do more of this. It’s fun.

And stick around. After the break, a conversation with Diana Taremwa Karakire about the reporting she’s been doing for us the past year on the EACOP project in Uganda and Tanzania, and her experience creating a publication focused on Indigenous rights throughout Africa.

Diana is based in Uganda, and there’s been quite an increase in cracking down on protest against the project there and even on journalism covering the project. So we talked a little bit about that too. That’s all coming up after this quick break.

[ second midroll]

Diana Taremwa Karakire: My name is Diana Taremwa-Karakire. [00:41:00] I’m a journalist based in Uganda. I do report about oil and gas and basically energy and human rights, and climate environment, and Indigenous peoples. I do freelance work for different publications. Currently a reporter with Drilled, but I also own, a Pan-African digital magazine called Indigenous Times, where we do amplify issues of Indigenous people in Africa.

Amy Westervelt: You’ve reported on some of the things that the government has done around repressing protest against EACOP, but, you know, we hear stories about them not being so happy about journalism that’s critical of that project either, so how has that been for you?

Diana Taremwa Karakire: Yes, that’s [00:42:00] true. There’s generally been a lot of threats and intimidation generally around environmental defenders, including us journalists that do report around environmental issues. In particular, we’ve also seen curbing down on protests around EACOP. We’ve also seen threats and closure of organizations that are working on oil and gas issues. And so that has been, that, that, that has created a lot of tension. As a journalist who, who’s reporting around these issues has, it has made me a bit more, s- security conscious, but also being able to get sources to speak to around these issues has also become a little harder, because people [00:43:00] don’t want to speak, people don’t want to speak out about these issues, so, they also don’t

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Diana Taremwa Karakire: want to expose themselves. So that has been i- it’s been a bit challenging that way.

Amy Westervelt: Yeah, I bet. How did you first start reporting on oil and gas? What kind of drew you into looking at that?

Diana Taremwa Karakire: Okay, so so I grew up in a household — I grew up around activists who were around environmental activists.

Amy Westervelt: Oh, that’s cool

Diana Taremwa Karakire: Yes, so I grew up around my uncle who, who’s an activist, and so there was constantly that that sound around me about people taking action around the environment and taking action on climate. So it was constantly in my brain. And so when I got to university I wanted, I want- I, I remember I wanted to choose law as a [00:44:00] course, but my uncle was like, “I think we have too many lawyers.

You’d be a g- I think you’re a good storyteller.” So, “You’re a good storyteller.” So I, I just went on ahead and and did journalism and communication. And, and so even after journalism and communica- During my internship, he offered me an opportunity to work with him in his organization. From that time I got into…

Because his organization was focused on environment specifically

Amy Westervelt: Mhm.

Diana Taremwa Karakire: around renewable energy and and oil and gas. So, but, but it was more, I was doing more of communications work for him. So during that time, I, I kept thinking, I s- I think I can better tell these stories if I go to the communities.

And I think the other thing that used to, that sort of, [00:45:00] was, was a bit unsettling was us going to the communities and preaching about human rights

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Diana Taremwa Karakire: to people who are, people who are hungry, people who are who, I mean, they’re, they’re, they w- they want school fees for their children. So it was a bit unsettling for me, and I, I was like, “How, how else can I do this work without without just preaching about human rights and empowering?”

Which wasn’t bad work, but sometimes people are just, I mean, hungry. They are so… And then I would also be

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Diana Taremwa Karakire: aware of the different issues that are affecting these communities. And so then I went back into storytelling from the organization. I went back into journalism, storytelling because I felt I would do better telling people’s stories,

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Diana Taremwa Karakire: than, than just preaching [00:46:00] about human rights.

Amy Westervelt: Yeah. Yeah. That’s so interesting. Okay, I feel like that, that ties in really well with the work that you’ve been doing for Drilled, which is really digging into how EACOP, which is this big pipeline that TotalEnergies is building with the governments of Uganda and Tanzania, across Uganda and parts of Tanzania as well.

It’s been protested kind of all along the way at various points, but you’ve done all these really interesting stories about the on-the-ground impact on specific communities that are sort of, like, along the route of the pipeline. So tell us a little bit about what you found. We’ll put links to the stories in the show notes, too, but tell us a little bit about how this project is impacting the communities in its path.

Diana Taremwa Karakire: Yes. So, most of my stories have been around TotalEnergies Tilenga project

Amy Westervelt: Mhm.

Diana Taremwa Karakire: and the East [00:47:00] African Crude Oil Pipeline project. And the Tilenga project is a bit unique because it’s, it’s in the middle of Murchison Falls National Park, one of Uganda’s largest parks. So my reporting goes beyond the development story that government and oil companies are telling us.

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Diana Taremwa Karakire: Beyond that, what have been the, the impacts on the communities where these projects are, but also the environment in these communities. So, and the things the, the… Some of my findings have been that that actually communities think these projects are more of, a land grab,

Amy Westervelt: Mm.

Diana Taremwa Karakire: because they feel they were not, first of all, the, the projects themselves have violated the principles of free, [00:48:00] prior, and informed consent.

Amy Westervelt: Right

Diana Taremwa Karakire: And, communities complain that the, the, the, they didn’t understand the magnitude of these projects. And, and for those whose land was taken because, I mean, the projects require land to be

Amy Westervelt: To be built.

Diana Taremwa Karakire: to, yeah,

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Diana Taremwa Karakire: for the EACOP to be built and for the Tilenga, it also requires land for the different feeder pipelines connecting to the refinery and all.

So the communities feel first of all, they didn’t understand the magnitude of these projects, but they also feel they had not, they have not been adequately compensated for their land.

Amy Westervelt: Yeah.

Diana Taremwa Karakire: And the other challenge is most of this land is communally owned,

Amy Westervelt: Mm.

Diana Taremwa Karakire: so, so the their, their lives are tied to the land in terms of these are their grazing lands. These, these, these are lands where they’ve buried [00:49:00] their people for generations. There, there’s a lot of cultural, sacred sites on these lands.

Amy Westervelt: Mhm.

Diana Taremwa Karakire: So, so that displacement meant that they were supposed to move away from a life they have known all this time. So they feel they were not adequately compensated.

They feel they were not adequately consulted in the whole process in the development of these projects.

Amy Westervelt: Yeah. Yeah. And how does that contrast with how Total and the government talk about this project? What are, like what are the things that they say are sort of like big benefits of this project that it doesn’t seem like are getting to the communities?

Diana Taremwa Karakire: Okay. So T- Total is constantly preaching about the jobs the, that the industry is going to create. But I think even that narrative is tired now [00:50:00] because communities actually members realized that, the- there were just a few projects that were created for a few people, the, and some of the people didn’t even come from within the local communities in these areas. And so, and so that also has sort of angered the, the people around these projects. But then also even the people that were employed in the beginning of these projects have been laid off with time.

Amy Westervelt: Wow

Diana Taremwa Karakire: Because as the projects have, have have tran- have proceeded there, there’ve also been massive layoffs.

Amy Westervelt: Mhm.

Diana Taremwa Karakire: And so it, it, it just goes back to what activists have, have always been saying that it’s, it, it, the, the industry doesn’t create as many jobs as the companies have been saying, even as government has been preaching, that the jobs are really not as many [00:51:00] as as they’ve been projecting.

Amy Westervelt: Yeah. You’ve been reporting on this for a while, so I’m curious to hear your take on, like, the, the story that always gets told about these projects is that they will bring money to the economy and development to the country. We talked about the jobs thing. That’s another one. What have you seen as, like, the re- Oh, and that it will provide affordable energy for the country.

So what have you seen as, like, the reality of, of those promises?

Diana Taremwa Karakire: Okay. So my observation has been, and, and I mean, I, I, I, I come from my, my, my opinions come from and i- are, informed by the several reports I have

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Diana Taremwa Karakire: been reading, but also the workshops I have attended. [00:52:00] And from that, mean, if there are several reports that say that actually oil and gas — countries that have produced oil and gas in Africa have not really benefited from this resource, and and I see that on ground because, I mean, I have per- I have friends that had been employed in this sector,

Amy Westervelt: Mhm.

Diana Taremwa Karakire: and they are being laid off after, after all these years. So, so that in itself points you to the fact that companies are really … They’re not interested in leaving any profits behind for,

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Diana Taremwa Karakire: for, for, the country. And they’re, they’re just interested in producing the oil and taking it, because I remember even our president, f- in the beginning was, was leaning [00:53:00] towards having a refinery in the country.

So we produce our oil, refine it here, people get to benefit for it. But the companies actually went ahead and convinced him that it was better to build this gigantic pipeline and take the resource out of the country. So,

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Diana Taremwa Karakire: From that, I don’t see the benefits trickling down to, to the common people. But then also we’ve been– the government has also been involved in several corruption scandals, I think that’s what, activists have been saying.

If we’ve failed to manage the, the, the budget and the little resources we’ve had as a country, how

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Diana Taremwa Karakire: how do we think that government is going to manage the

Amy Westervelt: Right

Diana Taremwa Karakire: profits from this resource, the management funds from this resource?

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Diana Taremwa Karakire: The p- the opaqueness that also surrounds the proceeds from the sector, but [00:54:00] also around the agreements that were signed between government and and the companies. Up to now, these have not been disclosed to us. We actually do not know.

Amy Westervelt: Wow

Diana Taremwa Karakire: And, and civil society has been pushing for the longest time for this to, to be made public so we know. We also had a scenario where our former minister of finance said that, “Oh, I actually signed the production sharing agreements without reading through.” So what did you sign if you didn’t read through.

Amy Westervelt: Oh no.

Diana Taremwa Karakire: That is on record. It’s even — it’s in the papers. But even our president

Amy Westervelt: Wow!

Diana Taremwa Karakire: has come out to explicitly say that, “Oil belongs to me. Oil is my resource.”

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Diana Taremwa Karakire: that in itself is a pointer to are, are the citizens really going to benefit from this resource?

Amy Westervelt: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that you reported on [00:55:00] that I thought was so interesting was around this idea that Total has been pushing about net biodiversity gain, that like, because they are gonna plant some trees over here, that like this impact in, you know, Murchison Falls Park is no big deal.

Don’t worry about it. So yeah I’d love to have you talk about that a little bit, how they frame that.

Diana Taremwa Karakire: Yes. So, so TotalEnergies has this program that it calls the three pillar biodiversity framework that is going to be — So, so, so TotalEnergies is operating the Tilenga project inside Murchison Falls National Park. And so under the three, its three pillar framework, it says that it’s going to implement the no net biodiversity loss framework. So, so under that, this is what it’s doing. So they are going to be translocating [00:56:00] some of the the wild animals in the park to other different national parks around the country, and then they’re going to be planting trees, but also just around in the, in the same area, in the communities, planting trees. But then even those projects have also met sort of local resistance, the tree planting campaign, where communities were saying that the, the trees, they’re introducing a different species, tree species to these areas.

Amy Westervelt: Oh my God. Oh my God.

Diana Taremwa Karakire: Different species to these areas.

Amy Westervelt: So they’re not planting native trees, they’re planting, like, imported

Diana Taremwa Karakire: Yes. Yes.

Amy Westervelt: Amazing.

Diana Taremwa Karakire: And so, so, so yeah. So that’s what it’s been doing.

But then also the translocation has also not worked really well because, it has also increased the human wildlife conflicts in this area [00:57:00] because , animals are moving away from the noise and the sound and the chaos of the whole project, they’re moving further into the communities.

So they’ve also increased,

Amy Westervelt: Mm.

Diana Taremwa Karakire: Cases of human wildlife conflicts. But then also the whole exercise of translocation, moving animals from this area to another area, and then you also increase cases of human wild co- or life conflicts in those other areas where animals are

Amy Westervelt: Yeah.

Diana Taremwa Karakire: Moved. So it’s not really working well like they claim.

Amy Westervelt: Mhm.

Diana Taremwa Karakire: But then the other thing that I’ve also noticed is that the company has been, Okay, so they say that they are working with conservation organizations,

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Diana Taremwa Karakire: but to fund a conservation organization, and these are like wildlife conservation organizations, them to work with them conduct is a… So it’s been also activists [00:58:00] call, have called it the company just trying to, to, buy these conservation organizations

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Diana Taremwa Karakire: because some of them have been critical of

Amy Westervelt: Yep

Diana Taremwa Karakire: their biodiversity framework. So what they do is bring them on board and fund them.

Amy Westervelt: Yeah

Diana Taremwa Karakire: And so every time I’ve even approached these organizers and like, “Oh, we can’t talk about what we are doing with Total.” Why can’t you talk about what you’re doing with the company?

Amy Westervelt: Yeah.

Diana Taremwa Karakire: These are community projects.

Amy Westervelt: That’s, yeah. That’s super interesting ’cause it’s so,

Diana Taremwa Karakire: Mm.

Amy Westervelt: We did a big project reporting in Guyana a couple years ago in South, in South America, and that was an Exxon project, but it was a very similar approach where, like, w- you know, some of the first things they did in the country was first they ch- they hired a lot of the [00:59:00] journalists to do PR for the project, and then they funded, yeah, like any conservation organization that would normally have been critical of that project, they, like, gave a bunch of funding to.

And then part of their funding agreements was that the conservation organizations had to do, like, videos with them to be like, “This is so great how Exxon is funding…”

Diana Taremwa Karakire: Here they’ve been taking lots of photos.

Amy Westervelt: Yeah. Yep.

Diana Taremwa Karakire: Mm

Amy Westervelt: Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. It’s a playbook.

Diana Taremwa Karakire: It is.

Amy Westervelt: Okay, I would love to have you talk about your magazine, Indigenous Times. What like what prompted you to start it, and what kinds of things do you guys cover?

And we’ll put a link to that in the show notes too so people can find it.

Diana Taremwa Karakire: Okay. So, Indigenous Times is a Pan-African magazine where we, we report and [01:00:00] amplify issues of indigenous people in, in Africa. So, I did some stories around indigenous people Uganda, and whoo, those stories overwhelmed me. The level of marginalization of these communities, but also realizing that their issues were being under-reported.

They were not even receiving the media attention that they deserve. And, also that marginalization is slipping through into policies and legal frameworks and,

Amy Westervelt: Mm-hmm.

Diana Taremwa Karakire: Realizing that some of these communities are actually also not recognized by the state. Some of them remain stateless.

Amy Westervelt: Ja

Diana Taremwa Karakire: So, so, so, and then I also read widely and realized that actually this happens with [01:01:00] indigenous people across Africa. And the fact that I also have roots in, in indigenous people from Western Uganda, I realized, okay, this is a very big gap, and, and that’s really what prompted me to start this this media company, and I have b- for the past few years.

So I registered this last year, and but we’ve been operating for, for like four years now. But of course, because also registration here takes some time, and, government has been very careful. Government in this case, the Uganda the Uganda Registration Bureau the one that registers organizations, somehow, if, if your organization is going to do work around human rights, so it really takes long or [01:02:00] sometimes you’re not able to even register it for as long as you mention something to do with human rights. And so we were only able to get it

Amy Westervelt: Interesting

Diana Taremwa Karakire: it registered last year. But over the course of the years, I’ve been trying to bring on board other journalists that I can work with to be able to amplify around indigenous people and their environment, and also not just stories that that, that just talk about the the marginalization, but also stories that talk about the solutions and how their cultures mesh into environmental protection and conservation. yeah, that’s, that’s, about it.

Amy Westervelt: I’m excited. I, I, like, I have read a few stories in there already, but I’m excited to read more. It’s great that you’re doing [01:03:00] that. Okay, awesome. Well, thank you so much for taking the time and doing all this great work, and we’ll stick links to all of it in the show notes. And yeah, hope you have a good rest of your day.