Mary Annaïse Heglar

[00:00:09] Hey, Hotcakes. Welcome to Hot Take, the podcast where we examine the climate crisis and all the ways we're talking and not talking about it. I'm Mary Annaise Heglar.

[00:00:20] And I'm Amy Westervelt. Today, we're talking about something that's on everyone's mind. Political instability. And specifically how climate change intersects with and intensifies it.

[00:00:33] Exactly. And we're joined this episode by Justin Worland, who is the lead environmental and climate reporter at Time magazine, which is just like a magazine that my mother loves and adores as whereas if she reads Time magazine, she then reads everything in the world and knows everything that is happening ever. So we're very lucky to have him on this show.

[00:00:58] Yeah. Yeah, he's great. I think his reporting in general is really, really great. And he talked quite a bit about how these issues of political instability and climate intersect. And he explained for us what an Amy Cony Berrett confirmation might mean for climate policy.

[00:01:18] Yeah. And we dug in to a little bit more about how climate change increases and exacerbates police violence because, of course, it does exacerbates all violence, who is not more irritable when they're hot and bothered. So, yeah, it was a really great to dig into that with them. If you want the links to the articles we talk about in here, you should make sure that you subscribe to our newsletter. And if you want some extra amazing premium content, you can subscribe for just seven dollars a month.

[00:01:48] That's right. And we also have a free version. If seven dollars a month feels like a stretch right now, we get it. There will be more details in the show, notes on how to find that and special request.

[00:01:59] Please go leave us. A review in Apple podcasts. If you have not already done that or wherever you are listening, but the Apple podcast, once I don't know, seem to actually matter more. It's how people find us.

[00:02:10] Yeah, it's really easy. Just like go in there, give us a little five stars. We'll just like, say you love it. You don't really need to think about it that much. If you have a negative review, we have another system for that.

[00:02:22] And we'll talk about that at the end of the show.

[00:02:24] Yeah, it's time to talk about climate.

[00:02:36] Just a whirlwind welcome to the show. We're so happy to have you there. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:41] So first things first. How did you get into journalism and specifically into climate journalism?

[00:02:48] Yeah, so I got into journalism really like in college, I kind of fell in love with the school paper and was just like that. I always joke like the school paper was my second major or like my major. Did you go to school?

[00:03:03] I went to Harvard or rootworms in the school paper. Yeah. I mean, so I did that and I and then I so I knew I wanted to go into journalism, did some internships wound up at time doing my breaking news that was very sort of, you know, entry level stuff and abouts five years ago, a little more than five years ago. This opportunity came to do the climate beat. And [00:03:31]honestly, I was like, what's this all about? I don't really know. And sort of after, like, a little trial period realize like, wow, this is actually the most important issue and it's not being covered enough or or in some ways, you know. Right. [15.8s] And so I sort of felt like that. And that's.

[00:03:50] Yeah. I mean, it's been, I guess, five and a half years.

[00:03:53] Do you remember the moment where you were like, oh, wait a minute, there's a line here.

[00:03:57] I mean, I think it definitely was like an evolution, but like I don't know if there was like a like one exact moment. But I mean, I think it was just sort of.

[00:04:08] Delving off into rabbit holes and seeing the implications of climate change for these areas that certainly weren't what I had been accustomed to reading about. So I don't I mean, I don't know if there's like that's like there's like a definitive moment.

[00:04:25] Yeah, you mentioned there sometimes not being covered, right?

[00:04:28] If you could change one thing or if it's a, you know, two or three, that's fine, too, about the way that we talk about climate in the mainstream discourse or in the media. What would it be?

[00:04:38] Yeah, I mean, that's right. You're you're right to say like two or three or.

[00:04:42] Yeah, I like to. Yeah. R11 yeah. We have time.

[00:04:48] I mean I think I think so. There's like a few things. One is I'm increasingly impressed that I think people who cover climate and know it well like do a good job at doing that.

[00:05:00] I think the challenge of course, comes when you look at the presidential debates or any time when somebody who doesn't really know their stuff like starts or needs to talk about climate. And so I you know, you get you get the bigger challenges. I think the one, if I had to pick one, is the framing of climate change, addressing climate change as like, what do you have to give up?

[00:05:25] And I think this is like something that I see even from, you know, mainstream journalists who should know better, who will frame a question about, you know, well, how much will it cost? How much should we be willing to sacrifice at it? I mean, you like I think everybody who listens to this podcast knows what why that's like trouble on, like, so many levels. But it's still, I think, what a lot of people think and I think even like I think even some people who mean, well, Democratic politicians sometimes will slip into a sort of like, you know, we don't we don't want to give anything up, sort of like language about it.

[00:06:06] Yeah, that's my that's my one thing.

[00:06:08] Yeah. Like how they don't want to give up fracking.

[00:06:12] And fracking is a prime example where it's it's you know, I understand the sort of messaging like you don't want to talk about losing fracking jobs, OK, but like maybe talk about the opportunities that are created. You know, if we do move away from from fracking. Right. Like don't frame it about giving up fracking talking and talk about like, yeah, we'll have cleaner water. Right. There's opportunities for new industries in new jobs and. Right. Yeah. So I think that's that is a good example.

[00:06:39] My most recent rant on fracking has been like I just don't understand why politicians in particular, when they're asked about that, don't come back immediately and say fracking companies are laying people off right and left. What are you talking about? They're all going bankrupt. They've never made money.

[00:06:55] The thing I always want to know, like, why don't they come back with this? Like, we're talking about saving lives here. Yes.

[00:07:01] Seems like this isn't about what's to be gained in the GDP. We're talking about like human beings, like so like, well, how hard would it be to come back with like, this is killing people and it's going to kill a lot more people. Anyway, I could go on that rant forever.

[00:07:20] No, I mean, I think that's that's that's definitely right. But I also think, like, I wrote a story in the spring about cost benefit analysis, which is like a a thing that, you know, why do we conduct the cost of an analysis when it comes to saving lives? Like, that's a whole different thing. Like, even if you accept the premise that it's all about GDP, like we should still be doing a lot of the things that, you know, that that we're talking about purely on the basis of saving lives. No, I think it's important to make that argument on all levels.

[00:07:54] You know, what's crazy about that, too, is that there was a story I mean, like way back 20, 30 years. It was like a big scandal when GM was caught basically making this calculation in like a spreadsheet.

[00:08:07] They were calculating how much money they would lose from a massive recall for like a safety flaw that they knew existed versus how many people would die. And they made the call that it would cost them less to pay out insurance claims from people dying than to do this recall.

[00:08:27] What the fuck? That's kind of what we're doing at a massive scale. Yeah.

[00:08:32] See, this is what I love about doing a podcast with Amy. She does, like, knows that shit.

[00:08:45] Yeah. One of the things we've learned the most from doing take for about a year now is how quickly the climate story has changed in the past, like four years, really the past two years. So are there any interesting emerging things that you've noticed in the ways that we talk about climate change?

[00:09:01] Yeah, I mean, I think one like just this. I mean, when I took on this be like five and a half years ago is not that long ago. I mean, just the sort of the volume and attention like level of concern that I think it's gotten is, I think the first thing.

[00:09:17] But I think the other thing is just, you know, talking about it as intersexual issue. And I. That like in really every respect. I think there's a growing recognition that climate change, climate policy, climate activism is not just about like, you know, emissions and even like emissions and sea level rise, that it's actually about literally everything. I think that that's something that, you know, most people would not have understood five years ago. And I think I don't I mean, I don't know that most people understand it now, but but I think that people who pay attention definitely are are increasingly aware of that. So I think that's a huge thing. There's so many reasons from that for that. I obviously like the activism with green diesel etc as a big part of it. But I think there are a lot of a lot of reasons.

[00:10:10] OK. So, Justin, what are you reading these days and what. Is there anything that you read on a regular basis to kind of stay up on these things or that, you know, a particular writer that you like on climate?

[00:10:20] Yeah, I mean, that's a good question. I try so I think a few things I would say I have I don't know. I subscribe to, like, I don't know, 20 newsletters. It's your favorite. And there's a right answer. Yeah, of course. Of course. Yours is my my favorite. I should probably take a step back and say this is a good time to plug my own newsletter.

[00:10:43] Which is called one point five, and you can Google it and find at one point five times. So please subscribe.

[00:10:49] But I. But really, I don't know. I think one thing that I've focused my reading on or tried to focus my reading on is, you know, as I said, thinking about climate as an intersexual issue. And so, like, trying not and there are a lot of great people writing about climate, but trying not to just read about climate, but actually just trying to like read the news.

[00:11:10] You know, anything and everything and sort of trying to find those connections that maybe people aren't thinking about because, you know, climate.

[00:11:19] I mean, for a long time, like the climate reporter, like, you know, had a lot of work to do, writing about climate reports and all the different climate things that are happening. And like so one thing that I really. Yeah.

[00:11:31] Like I try to do is like, OK, let me just read the newspaper or me read the whole newspapers and see where the climate story is that people are totally missing that. Yeah.

[00:11:41] Yeah. So that's like a very broad answer. But like, I don't know, I think it's important.

[00:11:59] No reporter at Time magazine, which is like very, very, very dear in my family, is the only magazine that my mother subscribes to.

[00:12:09] So I have a lot of questions for you. OK. One wet dog always knows the time.

[00:12:17] I hope you can ask Amy for help. OK. Amy, can I get a hint?

[00:12:27] I feel like it's like it's funny that you can ask me for help too, because I'm also very bad at these.

[00:12:33] Yeah. No, it's not really reptiles. Not actually. Not politically. Which is why I have no idea. Let let a watch dog. Oh God. Come on. We share that.

[00:12:48] That was an easy one. You started using, didn't you?

[00:12:53] Well, I mean, there's plenty to go. Don't worry.

[00:12:55] They're all about time. So if you thought from that setup, I was actually going to ask you about Time magazine. Think a fucking again. Why did the man put a clock under his desk? Well, the whole.

[00:13:15] See, our. Went ahead. Yeah. What do you do on your day? You work, right?

[00:13:29] Clock under it to work overtime. There you go.

[00:13:40] OK. So there's hope for you. Death is what that says.

[00:14:05] OK. So, Justin, the main reason we want to have you on is to talk about climate change and political destabilization, which is something you've written a bit about in time. So we have an excerpt from an article you wrote called How Climate Change Beats Political Instability.

[00:14:22] And we'd love it if you could read us that quick. Two paragraphs.

[00:14:26] Well, OK. Change play in our current political instability.

[00:14:32] It's a controversial question. For years, many politicians and commentators shuddered when scientists or climate activists discussed climate change in relation to individual storms or wildfires, accusing them of politicizing disaster. And in those cases, the link to climate change was relatively straightforward. The evidence connecting climate change and political stability has been less obvious, but is becoming increasingly impossible to ignore. Warmer temperatures and extreme weather exacerbate social stress, worsening economic outcomes. These, in turn, affect political behavior. A landmark 2013 paper in the journal Science found that the change in temperature of one standard deviation was associated with a two point three percent increase in interpersonal conflict flight rates and a thirteen point two percent increase in the rate of intergroup conflict. By 2050, temperatures are expected to rise by two standard deviations in most places across the globe and by as much as four standard deviations in some places. And these tumultuous times, both politically and climatically. There are several key factors of human behavior to consider. Research has shown that warm temperatures increase the odds of violent interpersonal interactions. So do you see spikes in violent crime? And police are more likely to use extreme force and use force and extreme heat. Studies have also found that people dealing with extreme heat are more likely to distrust outsiders. And research has shown that challenging weather shapes political decisions. And this is a quote here when people are uncomfortable, weather explains some of that, says Cohen. Alexander Cohen. And to continue, the quote can explain how There, respond to public opinion surveys.

[00:16:16] We know that it affects how they vote or if they vote at all.

[00:16:20] The thing I found most interesting about it was kind of the first thing you said was that it's a controversial question. And [00:16:26]I've got understand that it is a controversial question to a lot of people. [3.9s]

[00:16:31] [00:16:31]But I just don't understand how you like if you take the whole world and make it unstable. Of course, every system that operates on top of it is going to become unstable, too, right. [10.9s]

[00:16:42] [00:16:42]It's like trying to write in your journal while the subway's moving like you can. You're not going to be able to do it. [6.5s]

[00:16:49] [00:16:49]I know it's super weird, too, because, like, nobody questions. [2.7s]

[00:16:53] [00:16:53]You know, the fact that daily life gets harder when there's an extreme weather event, for example, like that's uncontroversial. So I don't understand why the idea that, you know, more and more extreme heat or hurricanes or fires or storms or whatever is going to make things less stable is is not patently obvious. [19.5s]

[00:17:15] [00:17:15]Yeah, right. Like, of course it is. [1.6s] So just how did you come to write this piece?

[00:17:23] Yeah. I mean, I was just so this was for this originally was in my newsletter that I mentioned earlier where I tried to just write about the news of the week and find the climate hook. And this was, you know, I mean, there was one of the many weeks and the last several months where everything just felt totally insane.

[00:17:43] And so, you know, I just I was familiar with the literature on climate and political instability. And I just thought, you know, it's a good time to sort of just go through it and review it for any readers who aren't. And, you know, it's like one of those things, too, where you can sort of pick apart, like a lot of the literature is on the developing world places outside of the US. But I just felt also, you know, given the storms that were in the Gulf, given the wildfires, given some of the flooding in the Midwest, I just felt like, you know what?

[00:18:21] Maybe this is like a time when people will actually really get it. Like, you know, to the point earlier, like, why is this controversial? I mean, I don't know. Obviously, I think it shouldn't be controversial, but I feel like a lot of it is that people just like they don't they can't. It seems too abstract. And so I just felt like, well, this is a moment where you can literally see it, like you can literally see the flooding and the wildfires, et cetera. So it just seemed like the right moment to sort of elevate that literature.

[00:18:53] You know, I think it might be because people are a scarce people. It is terrifying. Right.

[00:18:58] And so people are like, it can't possibly be that bad like that cognitive dissonance kind of comes back. I don't know if y'all used to have this experience. No idea. Like before 2016, whenever I would try to talk about climate to people, like they would really shut down and get really defensive and be like, it can't possibly be that bad. If it is that bad, somebody is working on a solution. Nobody would ever let it get that bad. We get really mad at me about it. And I feel like that still happens. Now, when you try to make the social consequences of it clear to people.

[00:19:35] Yeah. That yeah, that's yeah. I mean, like in a way it threatens. I mean, just understanding that threatens the way that we understand and engage in our world. So that's I, I mean I can get why that's a reaction even though that's not a smart reaction. Yeah.

[00:19:53] In the same article you talk about how increased heat affects police violence. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

[00:20:00] Yeah, well, it's so I mean, I refer to a study in this in this piece. But I mean, basically, you know, I mean, you can take police out of it for a minute and you think about it when it's really hot and you're outside and you're kind of agitated like, you know, you or me or any like person is more likely to make a rash decision. And the same goes for police. And, you know, there's literature on this. It shows that now police are more likely to pull that trigger when they feel agitated and extreme heat. It's interesting, too. I just as a sort of aside, this isn't in the piece. But I want to this focus group and this year but before cohabited in February, sort of a mix of black voters in Philadelphia.

[00:20:51] And it was like they sort of were talked through like, you know, what different thought, different parts of the climate. And most people walked in without really having much thought about climate change.

[00:21:04] But it was so interesting to see, like, people come to the conclusion, like on their own that like, what do you anticipate if there are more hot days and there are tougher times with police, tougher times and streets. It is like a thing that people intuitively get, even though. And of course, there's this robust literature to support that. So from what I just I was it's amazing how, like, people experience this already.

[00:21:30] Right. Like, if you look up the temperatures of any major day of political upheaval, it was always hot as balls like Bastille Day was super fucking high like it was. Same thing with the L.A. riots. Like you'll notice that the L.A. riots and when I say L.A. riots, I am thinking of like I'm thinking of the Rodney King riots of the 90s. But they only happen in really hot places because that happened. And I think in late March or something like it wasn't a typically hot it wasn't the summer. And so it happened in places like Atlanta and L.A. and then like the the unrest that we saw this summer when people spilled out into the streets. It was really fucking hot this summer. The Watts riots in the 60s, all of the all of those things happened when it was extremely hot outside because people are more irritable and not even just like the people spilling out into the streets. But the police will are way more likely to show their ass. Right. I also think of Katrina where they just like bounce or if they stay, they got it.

[00:22:34] Got real biblical. Yeah. I also wanted to talk about how I think people they think of climate change as being like a quick thing often.

[00:22:41] Maybe people are getting away from that belief. But I think a lot of people still think it is. And it's like you'll wake up one day and like this is climate change and it's actually not like that at all. And so I wanted to read from a piece from two thousand eighteen that was in the Atlantic called Trump Climate Change and the Future of U.S. Democracy by Van Newkirk.

[00:23:00] The most immediate consequence of climate change won't be an abrupt entry into an alien Anthropocene Hill.

[00:23:06] It's more likely to be a slow descent. Racial wealth gaps will increase. Racial health disparities will be exacerbated. Sprawling metropolises and rural hamlets alike will face steeper and steeper budgetary constraints and could be forced to rely heavily on the fees and fines to keep the lights on, a move that some cash strapped local governments have already made and one that disproportionately affects poor or minority residents. Housing markets will continue to realign in favor of displacement and the creation of a migrant renter class. Marginalized neighborhoods will continue to shoulder a majority of the environmental burden. Trust in government will continue to decline as it proves unable to help people plan for or respond to climate effects. Elections will be disrupted by disasters. Fewer and fewer people will have real attachments to local civic life. And even the concept of local or national shared destiny will suffer as the haves are shielded from consequences and disasters can and will rapidly push. Each of these weaknesses to crisis points, even as the rolling disaster of environmental change makes crises incrementally more likely every day.

[00:24:16] This is something I think about a lot because they feel like this is true everywhere.

[00:24:20] But it's I think it has the potential to be slightly more catastrophic in the US because it's happening on top of a society that's never really been good at community.

[00:24:34] I also think about this this year in particular, because people are being pushed out of their homes by fire, them by floods. And how are they going to vote? Where are they going to vote?

[00:24:45] Well, and then the fact that they're being pushed out of their homes during a pandemic, too, it's just like, yeah, it's really remarkable how, like, as you said, this is like this describes our world now.

[00:24:59] And this was like a prescient article written like two years ago. It's just it's it's terrifying.

[00:25:07] And I think it's like it's terrifying when we, like people in the know have known and expected what we see now. And it's just happening so much faster.

[00:25:17] And it's I keep thinking that, too. It's happening so much faster than than even what like. Yeah. What I thought or most people, you know, I think I don't know. I don't know why I thought it like we had another 10, 20 years before it got like this, but yeah.

[00:25:36] Yeah. Now same thing. I kind of think about that too when I hear like, you know, there's this new segment of climate denial that's like, yeah, climate change is real, but it's not that bad. And it's just like, what level of denial?

Transcription

TIME magazine energy and environment reporter Justin Worland joins to discuss the many ways climate change and political instability feed and exacerbate each other.

[00:00:10] Hey, Hotcakes. Welcome to Hot Take the podcast where we talk about the climate crisis and all the ways we're talking and not talking about it. I'm Amy Westervelt.

[00:00:19] And I'm Mary Annaise Heglar. And this episode, we're going to talk about some of the parts of the climate crisis that we don't talk about that much, at least not here. It's kind of like the hidden costs of climate change. You know, the extreme weather that's happening in the global south and how it is leading to this huge migration crisis and how we're not really talking about it that way. And the huge toll that it takes on environmental activists in the global south and how that sort of apathy that we in the West, in particular the United States, have shown to the rest of the world and how it's kind of turning on us now and all of us at stake in this election. And we're sitting down with a perfect guest for this conversation.

[00:01:03] That's right. We got to talk to Rachel Ramirez this week. She is a writer for Grist. Her beat is environmental justice and she grew up in the Marianas Islands. And talk to us. She's Filipino and she's Filipino. Right. So she talked to us about, you know, what it was like to live through storms there that weren't getting coverage and what it was like to be here when Superstorm Yutu hit. And, you know, she wasn't able to get news coverage about it or to reach her family, all that kind of. Yeah.

[00:01:34] So, yeah, she's got a bird's eye view, a handful of countries that get the coverage and it's the vast majority of the world that just gets ignored. So, yeah. This was a really interesting and important conversation. I felt like we should have before the election. This is our last episode before the election and we'll be getting back together just to vent and talk through whatever happens on on November 4th. Yeah. Which is my birthday. So send me chocolate.

[00:02:04] It's like it's seven days away and it feels like like frickin parallel universe that we can't die.

[00:02:12] It does. Like, I can't imagine the world afterwards. So, yeah, that'll be interesting. Yeah.

[00:02:18] So if you want links to the articles that we discussed in this show, make sure that you sign up for our newsletter. We'll have some more information about how to do that at the end of this episode and in the show notes and also make sure that you go and leave us a rating or review on items. Again, we have a different system for people to read negative feedback. We'll talk more about that and the end of the show as well. Right. That's it's time to talk about climate.

[00:02:55] Hi, Rachel. Thanks for doing this. We appreciate you joining us today. Thank you for having me.

[00:03:00] So first things first question we ask everybody. How did you get into journalism and specifically into climate journalism?

[00:03:09] Yeah, I mean, you know, it's a long story, but I actually we got time. I actually got into journalism because of a significant climate disaster that happened in my hometown.

[00:03:22] So I'm for those who don't know, I was born and raised in Cyprus and Northern Mariana Islands. It's a U.S. territory just north of Guam. And if you don't know where Guam is, I guess just Google Maps. But I guess, you know, the summer of 2015, I was an incoming sophomore. I went to the University of Portland. And that summer I visited my hometown. I went back home with my family, my friends, and then back to Portland because I was stirring call us college again, second year of college. And a couple of days after I came back, I think three days after I came back as a super typhoon was literally barreling down my Marianna's. And, you know, it was Super Typhoon Suda law. It was a Category five and it was really destructive. And, you know, my parents call me every day. And I I guess when the power went off and skypan out across the island, I was really worried. And I, you know, refreshing my Facebook feed, my Twitter feed on social media, trying to get updates on know my my mom and my dad there, my dad or day or my sisters or my friends or there,. But I wasn't getting the updates that I needed. And I just left and I was in Portland. And I think my first sort of instinct when something like this happens is to write and to. Yeah. You know, after after writing, I guess multiple Facebook statuses of like and sharing things of what's happening. And, you know, there was a lack of coverage, too, of what's happening, not even lack, I guess there was zero besides newspapers in Guam. So I wrote this, you know, super link, amateur, I guess, article CNN had this I-Report submission. I know you both remember that, but I don't think they have it anymore. But you sort of an article and you get this. You are well, you can share in your social media, but it's not, you know, published. It's kind of it's kind of like a citizen journalism type submission type thing. But I did that and then I got the euro showed on Facebook. And then once the power went back on the islands like it was widely shared. And I was like, oh, my God, I think this is what I wanted to do.

[00:05:49] Have you seen things in the way that it's discussed that you would that you would change or that you want to kind of focus on trying to change yourself?

[00:06:00] Yes. So I've you know, I've been I've actually been talking to I've been invited to talk to grad students at NYU and CUNY in the last couple weeks.

[00:06:10] And one thing that I kept telling them is that, you know, if you're going to be a climate journalists, you have to step outside of the bubble and remember that climate justice or climate change really intersects with a plethora of issues such as, you know, housing, justice, economic justice, racial justice, immigration, cetera.

[00:06:30] Yeah. I guess, you know, this is more for journalists. And, you know, we all know in our circle we know this. And my you know, my partner probably thinks I'm a broken record after hearing this a few times. And I could not emphasize that enough that, you know, if you don't think a news story is a climate story. Think again. And that's something that I told them a lot. And, you know, if you don't think the climate story. You know, think again. If you don't think immigration is the climate. Sorry. Think again. Yeah. And I know that that's that's the one thing that I would change and the way we discuss climate. I mean, as a journalist, you know, as in the work that we do in our space, we know this. But I think in the overall sort of climate discourse and Chin, I feel like that's something that people don't realize.

[00:07:17] Yeah, yeah. It's interesting, right. Because we've turned COVA into an everything story. Right. Like, you wouldn't write about like this year's baseball season without talking about how it intersects with COVA. And you shouldn't write about it without talking about how it intersects with climate. Either way, like is hotter out her. So. Yeah. And on that note, are there any interesting themes that you've noticed?

[00:07:43] I feel like the climate conversation has changed dramatically in the past two years and it's changing just all this time. So are there any, like, encouraging in particular themes that you've noticed in the way that we're talking about climate change now?

[00:07:58] Yeah, I definitely think environmental justice is coming into the spotlight more now in the larger picture. Again, I think for us it's something, you know, we've sort of been writing and talking about for a long time and for a while now. But I think for other folks outside of climate, Twitter or the climate space, I feel like, you know, they think that environmental justice is just about. And I think I tweeted this actually vulnerable communities getting hit the hardest from store fires. But, you know, we we know that that it's bigger than that. It's about the military poisoning the Pacific. It's about it's about formerly red line community suffering the most from extreme. He it's, you know, deeper than that. And I think now the narrative has shifted to, oh, it's black and brown communities intentionally and disproportionately located next to polluting infrastructure, the fossil fuel industry. And we we saw that come up for the first time, at least in my lifetime, on the debate stage last week when Kristen Welker asked the candidates about that very question. And, you know, I remember jumping on my couch and screaming when I heard that. But, you know, it's more interesting because it's like, why now? Right. When environmental justice has been a term and an issue, a route that's been around for decades since like 70s. So, yeah, I think I know it's my beat, but like, I really do think that environmental justice is a theme that's sort of emerging now.

[00:09:30] Yeah. I mean, that wasn't the first time in your lifetime. That was the first time ever because we before this election cycle, the discussion of climate change in any presidential and vice presidential forum was total ten minutes.

[00:09:45] Well, and certainly no one ever asked about environmental justice.

[00:09:49] Absolutely not. I mean, something so powerful that it's a woman of color who asked.

[00:09:56] Yeah, she she left a lot to be desired in terms of pushing back on a lot of the nonsense, though.

[00:10:04] Do you mean the I'm the least racist person in this room comment, Mary.

[00:10:10] I mean by that I mean so much shit, Amy. So much shit. I know.

[00:10:17] So yeah. But no, it was cool that she in particular ask that question and that, you know, I mean, I'm sure it's like the first time several people watching. Thought about that. So but yeah. I don't know why it's it's emerging now and not, you know.

[00:10:39] You know, the discussion, I feel like I started to when during the no dapple protest. But then it went down again and then the youth climate movement came up and then. Yeah. And now it's coming up again. Well, you know, as the country.

[00:10:54] That's true. Its racial reckoning.

[00:10:59] And I do think the youth climate movement is way, way better at just like coming from. And E.J., Lindze from the jump, like they're not they didn't have to be told that.

[00:11:10] Yeah. Oh, yeah. OK, so what what are you reading these days?

[00:11:19] Do you. Are there particular newsletters that you read. We know you have one too.

[00:11:25] Or, you know, like particular writers that you follow or a book that you read recently or outloud greed on climate.

[00:11:34] I mean, you know, just this week, just yesterday, like, there was a bunch of environmental stories that were published in really great investigation in behalf of thesis.

[00:11:45] Yeah. I mean. Yeah. Great book. You.

[00:11:52] But I think there's a lot of journalists and I don't think I can list most all of them.

[00:12:00] And I tweeted which of article articles yesterday as well.

[00:12:03] But right now and recently, I would you know, I reckon I recommend reading and they wrote about this.

[00:12:10] The book Poisoning the Pacific would just which just came out this month. And I wrote about it in The Guardian. And it basically explores and highlights how the U.S. military covered up years of contamination and and and this environmental destruction in the Pacific of indigenous lands in in across the Marianas and Marshall Islands, in Hawaii, in Okinawa and Japan, and just, you know, just burying barrels of toxic chemicals in this, you know, all these things that is literally poisoning the Pacific.

[00:12:51] And that that's that's a title. So, yeah, it's I read that and I was just shocked. And I really highly recommend people read that. And it's Poisoning the Pacific by John Mitchell.

[00:13:03] And then right now, I actually have a book with me called.

[00:13:08] And I've been referencing it in some of my stories called Disposable City by Morio. All 100 Rizza probably butchering his name. I'm sorry, but it's about Miamis future on the shores of climate catastrophe.

[00:13:24] So, yeah, I guess those are the two books that I've been reading and kind of going back to.

[00:13:31] I love it. Nobody ever gives us book recommendations. So that's awesome.

[00:13:38] I started this year tracking my books that I read, so I had a log it down and my good reads. And so I'm on track to do like three, 30 books, hopefully by the end of the year. That's awesome.

[00:14:08] You're writing a lot. Sounds like it's kind of like your your safe place as it is for me and Amy. So this lightning round is about writing. So she'd be like right up your alley ratio. What do you call a writer who doesn't follow the rules of city's structure? Oh, my God. A journal is a rebel without a clause. Yo, get some, don't worry. What did the writer who became a baker become known for you? Yeah, I have no idea. I have no smart answer.

[00:14:47] You can also ask Amy for help because she should know this, too. God, I'm terrible at these. Mary loves to tell people ask me for help because I'm even worse at them than everybody else. Kind of.

[00:14:59] Mary, is this this isn't it. Yes, it is. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is about. I love the plundered.

[00:15:11] Can you repeat the question, Mary? What did the writer who became a baker become known for?

[00:15:44] OK. So, Rachel, the real reason we want to have you on the show is because we wanted to talk about the past of the climate crisis that we often don't talk about here in the United States because they don't happen here.

[00:15:56] They happen below the equator generally. And I want us to start off by having you read from a piece that you wrote last year in Griss.

[00:16:10] A year ago, this island was hit with the worst storms since nineteen thirty five. What happens next?

[00:16:17] Super Typhoon U2 made history as the worst storm to hit United States soil since nineteen thirty five.

[00:16:23] The Category five storm wreaked havoc on the islands of Sipan and Tinian, which are part of the U.S. Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands. The storm left thousands of residents without homes for weeks.

[00:16:36] Fallen power poles and palm palm trees blocked main roads, while tin roofing and debris blanketed the ground site.

[00:16:43] Pan International Airport canceled all flights for about a month. South Korea deployed military jets to rescue tourists trapped on the decimated island.

[00:16:54] Hurricane Maria made headlines two years ago when it pummeled Puerto Rico, another U.S. territory. But many mainland Americans didn't hear much about super typhoon. You, too. That's not only because of the scars. Media attention, but also because the islands are largely missing from U.S. history textbooks. Now, the year has gone by since to battered the Northern Marianas and residents are still reeling, waiting for government funding.

[00:17:17] Watching warily as another storm season passes and wondering when things will get back to normal.

[00:17:24] Wow. Yeah. And, yeah, you know, I don't we like we talked about this a little bit about just how little coverage there was. Yes. Of this storm when it happened.

[00:17:35] But I don't think I even realized that the airport was shut down for a month. That's crazy.

[00:17:40] Yeah, that's not. Yeah. Yeah. So what's happening there? What's happening there now?

[00:17:46] How's it because I know like with Maria too. It's still you know, there's they're waiting for things.

[00:17:52] Yeah. I mean it also compounded with the lack of tourists and driving the economy.

[00:17:59] So the island is also suffering from that.

[00:18:03] Yeah. Durst The lots I visited and twenty ninth in last year something and and I'm pretty sure this is still true today, but there are still sort of Routon refugee like tents from FEMA, right.

[00:18:21] Yeah. Those tents still exist today because a lot of the homes are still, you know, really destroyed.

[00:18:33] So have the Times. But I think a lot of people have also moved on to, I guess, apartments or other homes, and I know a lot of people have also moved on to the mainland.

[00:18:44] And, you know, now, even personally, my now that my sister is in college in California and my parents are sort of tired of dealing with sort of the economy and also dust storms that keep battering the island. And my parents are planning to move to the mainland soon, possibly next year. And it's supposed to be this year, but the pandemic happened. So it's it's had an impact. And a lot of people's lives changed since then.

[00:19:12] Right. It's really sad how little coverage a storm like this got. And it's also that it won't be the last. It hasn't been the last. And every single the trauma that comes from something like that, which is another thing that I really appreciated about your article, is a year after it actually happened. And so you get to see what the scars look like a year later. And it's just something that people don't. People in the United States on the mainland are not really thinking about and how the lack of coverage can lead to a lack of response, a lack of donations, a lack of just like even awareness that this happened.

[00:19:53] Yeah. So there is actually an article that also was published. I think it was four. It was last month or this month in Harper's Magazine, where the article spotlights Super Typhoon Yutu inside pad.

[00:20:10] The writer, her name, I think with Ciara Murdoch, and she is not from Sipan whatsoever.

[00:20:17] She writes a lot about indigenous communities. And I think she spent some time in Spain getting to know the community. And I think she really did a great job of sort of telling their stories and in a very, you know, narrative and visceral way and essentially explores what, you know, when when is it time to abandon the place climate changed.

[00:20:42] I don't know. That story, you know, gave me chip chills because a lot of people she spotlighted this family who, you know, after waiting for, I guess, a month for FEMA, Inspector Holmes, because it was totally like Latin and destroyed by U2.

[00:21:01] They sort of this ultimately decided to, you know, uproot their lives and move to Seattle where some of their relatives are.

[00:21:09] And so it's that idea of like starting from scratch again after leaving their life behind and sitin.

[00:21:16] It was, you know, really heartbreaking. And I don't know, I just thought that article really hurt, you know, and really touched on the feelings of.

[00:21:29] I don't know. It was just as emotional for me, and it was. Yeah.

[00:21:33] Yeah. That makes me really happy to hear that they publish that, because the last time we read anything in Harper's, it was when they published that letter about cancel culture and.

[00:21:43] Yeah. And Amy and I went through their archives to be like this unless somebody did a climate story and it was frickin December. So I'm thrilled to see them turn their attention back to that.

[00:21:59] I saw you tweet recently that, you know, you just voted and you talked about like all of the people in, you know, the global selves who may or may not get to vote. Mariana Islands, they do get to vote, but they don't. I don't think the Electoral College representation do it.

[00:22:20] So. So for. Yeah, I talked about how in the U.S., the U.S. territories, which is the Northern Mariana Islands, Guam, U.S. Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico and American Samoa, who can. Yes, the US Census Bureau estimates that they have that's about four million Americans because anyone born in those islands are U.S. citizens. But, you know, they lack a constitution, the constitutional right to vote. And the messed up part is that they can serve in the military. And, you know, having you know, they can serve in the military, serve for their country, but they can't even vote for their commander in chief, which is, I guess, insane to me.

[00:23:06] And, you know, I think a lot of you know, a lot of people sort of ask like and there's this sort of movement to and it's also an environmental justice movement to theme militarize the gomory on this one, potentially in Guam and sort of gaining that independent status.

[00:23:27] But a lot of people sort of ask, like if if Psychon or the Marianna's or Guam were its own, you know, independent country, would it have been able to finance its own recovery? But, you know, the true sort of the hard truth is that I don't think it would have finance its own recovery without FEMA, FEMA assistance. I guess that's the hard truth. And, you know, we have we have right now we have a president and an administration that's currently rolling back environmental regulations that are supposed to be addressing climate change.

[00:24:00] That's that's facing these U.S. territories.

[00:24:04] And small island nations. But, yeah, it's it's hard. And it's you know, on top of that, the military is expanding in those islands as well.

[00:24:15] And they're sort of part of the problem when it comes to releasing greenhouse gas emissions. Right.

[00:24:23] So another disaster I wanted to shine a light on that really drove me crazy with Cyclone often, which battered Bangladesh and India and was just an extraordinarily strong and dangerous storm in a place that was the sun Sundarbans, which are rapidly, rapidly sinking in India. If you've had a tough go, she's Gun Island novels, all about climate change is set there. And yes, so there was this piece that came out shortly after the storm called Cyclone. Often victims feel abandoned by the international community. It's published in a German outlet. This past May. So this. The Journal is basically just quoted. This 19 year old student who goes by s.M Shaheen alarm.

[00:25:18] And he says cyclones don't scare me anymore.

[00:25:21] What scares me is that we're dying slowly because of climate change. All our farmlands and shrimp enclosures have been submerged once again. It means we won't be able to cultivate anything in the coming months. We have to rely on support from nongovernmental organizations. Sometimes I feel that the international community has also abandoned us. They have less less to die slowly. The West is largely responsible for global warming, which has resulted in higher sea levels. We are the ones who have to suffer because of it. Still, we don't see any international initiative for our protection.

[00:26:00] I really I I kind of am surprised that the conversation around climate reparations hasn't reemerged like this is something that came up. Maybe. Well, actually, when the mount the guy who held the first underwater cabinet meeting in the Maldives, he was a big proponent of that.

There’s a lot on the line this week. But we wanted to take a moment ahead of this momentous election to talk about the sides of the climate crisis we don’t often see here in the United States, because it’s happening in the Global South. In this episode, with Rachel Ramirez of Grist, as we waded through the crisis below the equator: all the disasters we don’t hear about, the capitols being moved away from rising seas, and the perilous and deadly work of environmental activists (many of them Indigenous people).

Hot Take S2

S2, Ep12 | All the Lives in the Balance, with Rachel Ramirez

S2, Ep11 | Political Instability =/ Planetary Instability, with Justin Worland

Hot Take is a holistic, irreverent, honest look at the climate crisis and all the ways media and society are talking—and not talking—about it. Hosted by real-life friends Mary Annaïse Heglar and Amy Westervelt—an essayist and a journalist— Hot Take offers a unique perspective on the issue of climate change. With a breath of fresh humanity and humor, conversation moves swiftly from cackling about the bad week an oil company had, to speaking seriously and passionately about the unequal distribution of climate impacts and our own experiences of climate grief. And then washing it down with a round of dad jokes! Every week, we’ll connect you with the latest climate news and with the journalists and storytellers trying to make sense of this complex issue to help you see the world through climate-colored glasses. We ended production on Hot Take at the end of 2022, but you can still access episodes here, or 

A holistic, irreverent, honest look at the climate crisis and all the ways media and society are talking—and not talking—about it.

S2, Ep11 | Political Instability =/ Planetary Instability, with Justin Worland

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S2, Ep12 | All the Lives in the Balance, with Rachel Ramirez