Personal Essay: Mothering In the Age of Extinction

 Welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelt.

Today we're bringing you another one of these conversations I've been calling messy conversations where we get into lots of different aspects of the climate crisis and how we're talking about it. Today my guest is Mary Anais Haegler, who you might remember as my co host on the podcast Hot Take. You might also know Mary from her many Excellent essays on the climate crisis and especially how it intersects with civil rights

few years ago, she wrote an essay for the Boston Globe about how she felt as a woman living in the world of climate crisis, and constantly being asked for her thoughts on whether she wanted to have kids. That story ended up being a lot about how she interacted with her nephew and how she thought and talked to him about climate.

And that ended up becoming a children's book, which is out today. It's called The World is Ours to Cherish. And it's an excellent way to start talking to the kids in your life about climate. This is a topic that I find really difficult. I have kids and I get asked all the time about how to talk to them about climate.

The assumption being that I have figured that out and I have not. So I thought I'd have Mary on to talk about that and her book. And of course, Mary being Mary and me being me, lots of other things that have nothing to do with either of those as well. That conversation is coming up right after this quick break.

Happy book day, Mary! Happy book birthday!

 Thank you. Um, it's been a long time coming, as you know. Um, had no idea a children's picture book took this long to produce, but apparently it's one of the types of books that takes the longest. So I learned a lot over the past couple of years.

 yeah, yeah. And tell us the name of your book so people can go buy it today.

 Yes. The name of my book is The World is Ours to Cherish.

 And this is a children's book! Like, I think it's very cool that your very first book is a It's a children's book and it came, it grew out of an essay that you wrote, right? About like a time that you were spending with your nephew.

 Yeah. So the origin story, um, is rooted in an essay that I wrote, um, in the Boston Globe back in 2020, um, that talked about, you know, the age old question that all the women in climate get, which is like, are you going to have children or why did you have children? Um, that annoying debate that somehow always goes to women and never to men.

Um, it's I was, you know, trying to deal with that in, in my way as someone who like even outside of climate, I'm not totally sure that children are in my future. Um, but that as much as whether I have children of my own, I'm really glad that there are children in the, in my life and how much I love my nephew and how I buy him.

At that point, I was the crazy aunt who bought him like books about all these different animals all over the world and that little ping of guilt that I would have when I bought him a book and being like, I don't know if these animals are going to be there by the time that he's able to get out into the world.

Um, now I say I was the crazy aunt who bought him a lot of children's books. Now I'm the New Orleans aunt. Um, so that changed.

 Um, yeah, so I'm buying him books about different musical instruments and stuff. So, um, and about King Cake. Oh my God, he's obsessed with King Cake now. I have created a monster. But yeah, I actually started writing the book when I started to realize that I was gonna leave New York.

Um, which was in the, the winter early part of 2021. Um, and because I was leaving New York, that was where my nephew lived. Um, I realized I might not be there when he started asking questions about why the world is changing the way that it is. Um, and at the same time, his mother, his parents were moving back to DC and it was like, Oh, I'm really not going to be there when he starts asking these questions.

 awesome. I actually didn't know that part about the fact that you were thinking about, you know, just not being there to answer those questions and writing it down instead. That's cool.

 It was also like a nervous project while my novel was out on submission. Um, for people who don't know what that means because you've, um, only if you've been in the publishing industry, do you know what that means? Um, Like, that means you're taking your, it's very stressful.

It means that your book is being shopped from different editors at different publishing houses to see if they want to buy it. And it's like going out to be judged and you need something to do while this is going on.

 especially with a novel, because for, um, nonfiction, you know, like you write a proposal and you write like one sample chapter, right? But for a novel, like you've got to write the whole thing first.

 you've like invested a lot of time. Yeah,

 Your heart and soul is on a page and it's going out to be judged and it's like, I need something else to do. So I'm not just sitting here thinking about this.

 yeah, yeah, totally. Um, fun fact, I have children and I

 know how to talk to them about climate change. It's, it's like something that people always ask me advice on because The assumption is, and it's not a wild, it's not like a wild assumption is that, you know, well you work on this subject all the time and you have kids, so you must have like figured out how to talk to them about this.

And to be honest, no, I feel like I'm, I, I feel like I might even be like worse than the average person at talking about it. Like to a weird extent, sometimes they'll ask me stuff like just the other day. Archie, my older kid was asking me about,

 he's 11 and he was asking about emissions or something.

And, um, and I, I kind of like clammed up. It's terrible. It's like, but it's sort of like that thing where it's like you, I don't know, I find myself having this like very lizard brain reaction where I just want to like protect their,

 Like innocence for as long as possible, though. Well, you know, they're like kids figure stuff out so quickly.

I'm sure that like they've been worrying about it and really like more helpful if I talk to them and then avoid it. But but it's hard. It's hard to talk to kids about that stuff, especially because also, you know, there's a level of like of guilt to it, too, where you feel like. Oh, God, I can't believe we didn't fix this in time, you know, um,

 and yeah, that paying of like, Oh my God, you know, like the thing that always got me about like gave me that feeling that you were talking about with the animals was, uh, was when Archie who's 11 now, he was like, he's been obsessed with the idea of going away to college since he was like seven and not even because he Like understands what that is, or he like wants to study or something.

It's really just having a roommate that seems fun to him.

 I mean, in his mind, it's like permanent sleepover, you know? Like I could just like live with

 I know. I know. So he always was like, when I go away to college, like, you know, could I do this? Could I do that? And every single time he would ask, I would always be like, Oh, you know. In my mind, I'm like, you're, there's not going to be college.

You're going to be like involved in water wars, you know,

 Oh, wow. Okay. Well, maybe that's not the best starting point for the conversation, Amy, but,

 my immediate fear response. I'm like, ah, yeah. So anyway. Yeah. I guess, um, my very long winded question here is like, how, how did you figure out how to start talking to him? This stuff?

 Well, um, I also have a lot of questions about that. Hopefully, um, I'll, I'll get, I'll, I'll get to them. Um, but how did I figure out how to start talking about it? It was like, I just started thinking about, um, what is the operative word in climate change? Um, and I think it's change. And so that is the, the message of the book of like, the world is Very magical.

It's very beautiful. But also the world has changed and the world that you're growing up in is not the world that I grew up in. Um, but the world will always keep changing and it's changed because you're here. You will continue to change the world and we can change the world together. Right? And so going with the idea that change is inevitable and it could be good or bad and you can play a part in what that change looks like.

So I really leaned into the idea that I, and no one else really knows what's going to happen, but we can control what we do and what our actions are. And I, I had to fight a little bit of a battle to make sure that the book stayed honest. Um, you know, cause I think part of, uh, the trouble with climate books is that people always want a climate book to be just closed book hopeful.

And I think you can write. I think I did write a hopeful climate book. Um, but I think you also have to be honest because as, as a friend of mine, um, said recently, Daniel Jose older, if you lie to Children, you don't deserve them. Um, and so I got some pressure to like, make the You know, in the beginning of the book, it's like, there's more fires.

There's less water. There's this, there's that to make those things come back as a resolution to the book. And I was like, that's not realistic. That wouldn't happen in their lifetimes. And I'm not going to lie to these children. Um, and so that took some convincing because I think it's just. Honestly, a lot of people, um, and our communications industries don't realize how bad the climate crisis has gotten, um, and think we're still in this place of, like, stopping global warming, preventing global warming.

It's like, oh, that ship sailed, right? Like, I think you remember when we were on Hot Take and we got the question of, like, what do you think of the debate between mitigation and adaptation? We were like, what in the 2010 hell? What kind of question is this? So, wait, but I also have to end this answer with a question.

Uh, what kind of messages do you think your children are getting from the outside world about climate change that they're internalizing?

 it's that's an interesting question. So also I While you were talking I was like thinking about the lying to thing and I was like, oh, maybe that's why I'm like avoiding Talking to them about it because I don't like I don't really lie to them I mean, you know, sometimes I tell little lies like we don't have any cookies Um,

 Cause mommy's eating them. We don't have cookies. Mommy has cookies.

 but I don't, you know, like about how life works in general, I don't shy away from like reality. So like, so yeah, I feel like part of it is I'm like, Oh, I'm not ready to have this like fully,

 you know, honest conversation with them about this, but, but it's, you know, I'm going to have to, uh, but yeah, I think. I think that, um, you know, my older kid in particular, like he's, he's like, you know, goes on TikTok and like goes on YouTube and watches things.

Fortunately, he, um, he also talks to me about everything that he sees, so I know, like,

 if he's being, you know, fed something, then, then I know. And also I've instilled in him from a very young age, like a, a level of skepticism. So like, he'll totally fact check things with me, you know, he's like, I heard this, like, is that true?

I'm like, no. Who said it? You know. What, what organization are they with who's paying them, you know, all of that

 So he's, he kind of has that filter, but also we live in Costa Rica. So he goes to a school where like, he has an ecology class. Three times a week and like they actually talk about all kinds of stuff related to The environment in general and climate change and all of that stuff.

So he is getting you know an education about it But I don't think and you know, actually both of my kids It's really funny like in for both of them like they you know at some point in school kids always get asked this This question that's like, if you had, you know, a million dollars, what would you do?

Or if you had like endless amounts of money, like what problem would you solve or whatever? And both of them like immediately, um. They immediately say, shut down the oil industry and give everyone a house.

 So they do get some, they're getting like, you know, they're getting

 not subliminal. That's not subliminal, no. You you raised little. little fossil fuel haters and I love it. Um,

 so honestly, I think that's like interesting because it's like they know more about the fossil fuel industry than they know about climate change, which actually,

And I wonder like, Especially with older kids, that might be the better place to start because otherwise it's just like, are they supposed to go fight the air?

 Well, also I, I feel like, um, I feel like, yeah, I, I, I know like when I, when I talk to Other young people, other people's kids, um, and they talk about climate, like a lot of times it's sort of this, um, deserved, you know, like anger at, at previous generations for like failing to, you know, deal with this problem and this and that, which is, is not You know, like I said, I mean, that that's deserved in some ways, but I feel like it is important for kids to understand, like how, I don't know, I guess like how power structures work and like how limited their, you know, parents or grandparents were in like their ability to really do something and how much that plays into it, which doesn't leave, you know, I, I, you and I have talked many times about this sort of like false dichotomy between Individual responsibility and systemic change.

Um, I'm not trying to say like nothing. Any one person does matters or any of that stuff, but, um, but like, you know, giving them, but at the same time, like, with. And I have talked to my kids a little bit about this, but I also don't want them to feel like, yeah, to feel like, oh, well, nothing I do is going to matter because these systems are so powerful.

There's nothing I can do to change them. But that's true of really like any social justice issue, you know, like

 Exactly. For some reason, people say climate change is different, right? Like you're supposed to find the one solution. Um, it's like people are just desperate to dip one toe in and be done. And it's like, you don't, you don't think about it that way with anything else. Right. Like nobody thinks like, Oh, you were nice to that one lady, but you didn't solve racism.

So you might as well have been an asshole to her. What? Yeah. See, that sounds absurd. Um, but I, I also, um, I also want to talk about this generational. problem that we tend to have in the climate space. Um, because I honestly think that might be the driving force between both of my books. Um, so shameless plug, I have another book publishing this year.

It's called Troubled Waters. It is a novel, um, and it comes out May 7th and it is about, uh, climate change, school desegregation, and the things that are lost between the generations and quick pause. That is the most. Coherent way I've ever been able to explain it quickly. I'm very proud of myself, very proud of myself, um, I've been struggling with that, um, however, it deals with this thing that I, I have always found very problematic and bedeviling in the climate space, this idea that, um, it's the previous generation's fault, um, and like, our grandparents didn't know what they were doing when they were setting the world on fire, right?

Like, that was just this fallacy that I heard. Um, Every freaking where and as a black person, um, whose grandparents were active in the civil rights movement, um, who's great, great. I think great. Maybe three greats. Grandparents were slaves. Uh, that sounds absurd to me. Um, like we were still waiting on 40 acres and a meal.

We wanted to go get our land, go farm it and mind our business. That's what we wanted to do. Um, but we weren't able to do that. The last thing we were doing was finding oil and digging it up and setting it on fire. So like this idea of like Blanketing previous generations with this like guilt was really insulting to me and to, you know, my grandparents and even my, my parents.

So, um, I, I wrote the novel to kind of deal with that. And also like you were saying you have guilt talking to your children about climate change. I feel guilt talking to my mother and my mother's generation about climate change because it's like y'all already dealt with a lot. Um, I don't want to. Also bring this to you.

And it's like, as a friend of mine once put it, there are certain conversations that you're not qualified to have with your mother when she's older than integration. just like this idea of like lecturing my mama about plastic bags, please. Absolutely not. I will not be doing it. Um, so, um, and then also with the Children's book, I think what we do with the younger generation is we'll be like, All right, buddy, go, go save the world.

Go fix it. Like our Children are going to fix it. The kids are all right. They've got this blah, blah, blah. And I feel like that is abandonment. Um, and like they are fighting for their lives. They're not fighting for yours, right? So I, I know that you've seen this, this phenomenon to where it's like, oh, we're going to be fine because Gen Z is going to save us.

Gen Z might save themselves and then they might beat your ass because that's cruel to just leave this all in their lap. Um, and so I, I made the point in the book of making sure that like, yes, you will change the world, but we'll, we'll do it together. You're not in this by yourself. Um, so that was a big. A big point of the of the narrative of like making sure that the child understood that this was communal and to go get involved in like, there's little suggestions at the end for things to do, and most of them are about, like, I think the biggest thing children can do to prepare themselves for climate change is to build community and know their neighbors.

And I say that as an introvert. Like, that's not easy to me.

 Yeah! Totally! That's the answer I always give to people to, in

 what should we do? Or, or, and also actually the what, the what gives you hope question too, is like, um, seeing community. I know, I know. But it is like, you know, when I see communities really coming together, I'm kind of like, okay, like people can figure this out and be okay, you know?

 Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. And it's like when us like Children can understand things like, uh, we live in a place where there are tornadoes when there's a tornado. This is what you do, right? Like, I remember those drills as a kid. I'm sure you remember like fire drills,

Um, so like kids getting them involved with how to prepare for a disaster, what to do, where to evacuate to. Um, yeah. A few, uh, like a couple of years ago, I was at my therapist's office and her, her child was often there. He had to have been like maybe six or seven. Um, and he also, I don't know if it was TOK, but he would always be listening to these videos.

Transcription

Mary Annaïse Heglar's first book is out today, and it's a 

 climate books Mary has coming out in the near future (the other two are a novel, called Troubled Waters, and an essay collection of Black writers on climate). She has been busy writing up a storm since we wrapped up Hot Take (and we've roped her into editing stories for Drilled, too). In this episode we talk about her books, what's happening in climate media in general, and the question Amy gets asked all the time and can't answer very well: How do you talk to kids about climate change.

S3, Ep27 | Election Spooktacular

Messy Conversations: How to Talk to Kids about Climate Change, with Mary Annaïse Heglar — a Mini Hot Take Reunion! 

Hot Take is a holistic, irreverent, honest look at the climate crisis and all the ways media and society are talking—and not talking—about it. Hosted by real-life friends Mary Annaïse Heglar and Amy Westervelt—an essayist and a journalist— Hot Take offers a unique perspective on the issue of climate change. With a breath of fresh humanity and humor, conversation moves swiftly from cackling about the bad week an oil company had, to speaking seriously and passionately about the unequal distribution of climate impacts and our own experiences of climate grief. And then washing it down with a round of dad jokes! Every week, we’ll connect you with the latest climate news and with the journalists and storytellers trying to make sense of this complex issue to help you see the world through climate-colored glasses. We ended production on Hot Take at the end of 2022, but you can still access episodes here, or 

A holistic, irreverent, honest look at the climate crisis and all the ways media and society are talking—and not talking—about it.

Messy Conversations: How to Talk to Kids about Climate Change, with Mary Annaïse Heglar — a Mini Hot Take Reunion!

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Personal Essay: Mothering In the Age of Extinction