Mary Annaïse Heglar

[00:00:13] But look, Senator Harris, you're you're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts. You yourself said on multiple occasions when you were running for president that you would ban fracking. Vice President Pence, once again, you provided the perfect segue way to a new topic, which is climate change.

[00:00:42] So what a night. Well, OK, a few things. One, I think Prosecutor Kamala definitely showed up yesterday, verbally kicked Mike Pence in the nards multiple times of the night night.

[00:01:01] Very eloquently put out. Yeah. Right.

[00:01:08] Yeah. Yeah. And. But I don't know. What do you guys think about on the climate front? What were your reactions?

[00:01:17] Well, I noticed that Kamala brought it up first and actually pretty early, like shortly after the 30 minute mark, which was like impressive. I remember watching debates before and being really frustrate, like even in the primaries. Where it wasn't until, like the last couple of minutes that they brought a climate in it, even if the candidates tried to bring it up, the moderators would like to shift the conversation away from it. So, yeah, Pomerleau brought it up first, then Mike Test like was more than willing to get into that conversation. The moderator brought it up on purpose. And then the candidates kept going back to it. So I think that's the most substantive bill alive. A lot of ways, but most messes of climate conversation we've ever seen in a national debate. I'm in Harlem. I am at the residence of Brian and Cynthia Thompson, who have graciously hosted me. So I don't have to sit through this bloodbath alone. And Brian made me a lovely negroni tonight. Nice, like little cherries. And it was delicious. .

[00:02:24] You know, I had my first Negroni tonight.

[00:02:29] Your first day first ever, ever stands for the love it.

[00:02:35] I loved it. Yes, I'm a convert. And now. And yes, we put we put blood oranges on top. So we were calling them bloodbaths. Love it. Love, honor. Yaha the night.

[00:02:48] Yeah. Yes. Brian, what do you think?

[00:02:50] I mean, I generally agree. I think, you know, it's just it's really I agree with that. I also find it really disheartening that way by tense like just wipe his ass off. Do you have a thing like that? Yeah. Yeah. So was it substantive in terms of the time? Yeah. Totally. Things that she said. Very good. But like the fact that like half of that time was just devoted garbage. Yeah, a little. Yeah. It was disheartening. Also, like, you know, it's like it's the thing that makes me more noise. It was even like, oh no, this is let's go through for this book. It wasn't like he put any effort into the trash. Like she just was like, I'm going to shovel some old crappy talking points.

[00:03:26] It was so I was like, is it nineteen ninety eight. Like really. Yeah.

[00:03:33] Like you couldn't keep the numbers for two like I mean like compared with Trump's other because Trump pulled out the whole like last debate. Like what was it. It's a hundred. True and truly. Yeah. Mike like pences like. Oh true. True and everything. It's like these guys aren't even like they clearly just like. Yeah. Don't even give a shit enough to like get their bad vibes Wyandotte. Which is.

[00:03:51] But the thing is like even with that is still the most substantive conversation we've ever seen about this in a climate debate or in a national debate, because before this was just ten minutes period, total cumulative. So that's where we got this much, even like if you cut it in half. The part that Carmelo is saying was substantive. And [00:04:11]I think like she's hiding something when she says, like, we're not going to ban fracking, which is something that Amy knows a lot about. [6.8s]

[00:04:18] [00:04:18]Actually, I don't I kind of don't understand why they're just seeding that talking point, though. They're they're letting the right frame. As you know, banning fracking is bad because it loses jobs like wine. I don't know why she doesn't come right back to that and say fracking companies are going out of business right and left. They're laying off their workers and they're not giving them any like they've only hired this many people. None of these companies have ever made money. The only way people have made money is when is like the first investors who made money off of later investors. That is a pyramid scheme. You don't need to ban fracking if it's dying all on its own. [37.5s]

[00:04:56] Right? Right. It's like a car.

[00:04:59] Why does I quit till like like why she doesn't talk about the fact that it's like the most government subsidized form of energy and that it is like poisoning people and that the people in the states that have fracking don't fucking want that. Right. They're also worried about Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania voters don't fucking want fracking. They're all. More than half of Pennsylvania voters across the aisle are now saying that they want at least some sort of tighter restrictions on fracking. Yes, I don't think that is why the side that supposedly believes we should act on climate is so fucking afraid of just like answering that question.

[00:05:42] I really think it's a surprise to me that they don't want to, like, go with the idea of talking about, like, what a just transition could be and talking about job creation stuff and what these dirty jobs that are going to be. Let's be real quick. We're all adults here. Fossickers and like a habitable planet don't coexist. And so, like you can people history are a limited resource.

[00:06:04] So when we choose to transition or not, we will have to at some point. Why not make a plan? Maybe they think that the graveyard's will have fossils by then.

[00:06:17] Like maybe you if it look like logit.

[00:06:28] God also also mad props to the fly. I love that fly the fly already has its winner. I mean, the fly, right? Yes.

[00:06:40] They fly. Yes. Yes. So you did there every day. You were.

[00:06:46] Yeah, I did. I can tell. I can see those lights flying.

[00:06:55] Cause he's on like the undead, right? Like zombies. These my 20 20 bingo card. And I'm calling it right now.

[00:07:06] My case for. What do you mean on national TV? Yeah. Coming out. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. But it beats the shit out of Biden's like, you know, red eye. Oh. The climate debate last year or climate townhall. But I did komala bringing up like the body count of the Trump administration and laying out. Titterton and qualitative terms that like. No. There's blood on these people's hands.

[00:07:33] I thought she did a good job of like talking to the camera, too. And like now.

[00:07:38] Oh, I mean, I think that, you know, it was kind of wild to me to hear like the football like of pens trying to be like, you know, we see the American people sacrificing and looking at like what this White House has done. I think they really just held like a super spreader event to celebrate this judge that, you know, he's got a big family, though, does a big family.

[00:07:57] That was so weird, right? That was very weird. And I had a lot of kids. I guarantee it would be a whole different story.

[00:08:05] Does that really weird? I think that had to be some, like, weird. I'm not a religious person. I think that was a religious nod somewhere. Yes, it definitely wasn't my size. I was like, that is a very odd thing to get very odd. Like the fact that he is a son, like, you know, like to be like, you know, we some see their own sacrifice and the whole time, like, they're pushing people to, like, literally sacrifice themselves and potentially die while they're doing everything they can do, like just live off like that sacrifice like nothing's changed. And a family came home to the White House with the super secret. But it's like, yeah, yeah. It's just so creative and and awesome. It's really just a disgusting thing that I brought up that sort of very human connected to, like real American lives experience stuff. Yeah. I trust that.

[00:08:53] Yeah. And then at the end it's like, well, are you going to. Are we gonna have a peaceful transfer of power if we lose the administrate. If you lose the election. And homies just like we're not losing that way for it, just that is bad.

[00:09:07] But it totally will. It's just a repetition of what Trump was saying to and then all these talking points about how the Democrats are trying to like, you know, steal the election by, I don't know, letting people vote.

[00:09:22] I mean, it's ridiculous. You're also in office. Do. Like, what do you mean steal the Drilled?

[00:09:32] I think about like, you're ineffective of the president. You know.

[00:09:44] Good for you and for you guys about Stephen Miller having Cauvin. Are you ready? Yeah, it's it's not really like in joke format. It's just a pun.

[00:10:02] Did you come back? No. No. Someone texted it to me and I was like, that was good.

[00:10:25] Also, like, just real quick, fuck him. Oh, my God.

[00:10:30] Yeah. Yeah. You know, I actually until today, I actually had, like, somewhat of a sympathetic view of Cambodia because I was like, you know, I like this dude asked a dumb question or what we would consider maybe kind of dumb basic question, 2016. But isn't this like a real like this is like a guy like you, just some guy. And this is this question. So I think you like getting like movies. You can see the look there. It's not good. We are still gonna say that I wasn't going to let like I felt learn is a good example of, like, people just like this, the level of knowledge that many Americans are operated on. And not that we need to all be like be a little. Yeah, very little. Exactly. I thought that was really informative. Yeah. Okay. Well, I know this and like, I think you feel like I can understand the information environment that I need to operate better. But after he came do that, I was like, I'm voting libertarian because the other options suck. Yes. Like, wow, buddy, you're really actually just really fucking dumb.

[00:11:27] Who is you? Kimberly Shaquill is what I want to know.

[00:11:32] Like. Does he have siblings? Does he have cousins?

[00:11:35] Is there anybody who could like could have like, yoked him up real quick? I don't expect child to have the answers as I do now. But yeah. Anyway. But Kimbo and his red sweater doesn't like. Why the fuck do you still like. Why did somebody bring up Ken Brulle like why is Amy with the new Ken Burns. Why does he have a verified Twitter account. It's like he's like the bonds owned by.

[00:12:12] And he's he's totally wearing the red sweater in both his profile like it's Abby Pic and his being. So you couldn't say no.

[00:12:21] I mean, who knows where he's most known for? I mean, will forever be known as the red sweater, red sweater. And then, like you really Halfords Akimoto, like people found his bride at the county fair. Like a bunch of like porn.

[00:12:46] Going back to the climate conversation, real.

[00:12:49] Another thing that I find really frustrating about those sorts of conversations is that the Democrats always like cede the ground of like making it about job creation or job. Yeah.

[00:13:00] When it's got lives saved and lives lost. I know.

[00:13:04] I don't understand why they don't turn the pro-life thing on on its head with that. Right. You know, like, I never I never understand that. Yeah. Also, I really don't understand why Comilla didn't go like. Actually, no.

[00:13:17] No one is advocating for abortion at birth. Yeah. That's not how things are like. Yeah.

[00:13:27] It was like I don't think Mike Pence understands where babies come from or how childbirth works. But that's a whole other story. Come from mother, me from mother's loins.

[00:13:43] And Alien Man is a vampire. And I guarantee you, this is a vampire zombie, which widely both is. I wouldn't put it past my to have a little bit of you know what? He blessed the other blood, but it eats people. Cannibal chertok. Undead cannibal. Yep.

[00:14:03] This is definitely taken a turn.

[00:14:16] Brian. I feel like I need a palate cleanser. Did you bring us some of your hate mail? Oh, yeah, I have. I really quick.

[00:14:23] Yeah, I actually got really good, like solid like a solid seven, maybe eight. Hate mail today. Nice. I had a good quality straight ahead. Everything was in all caps. Yeah. Yeah. It's seven, eight, nine paragraphs. It's like my paragraphs about. My gosh.

[00:14:43] Wait a second before you get into it. Listeners, Brian loves his hate mail. If you have not heard, like, the first installment of Brian's hate mail letters, go back to our episode with them from like August there,. So if you have negative reviews for Hot Take, we asked it, not put them into items and instead emailed them to Brian at Brian, Darkon at earthward dot com. That's the r i a n dot k a h in at earthier dot com.

[00:15:16] He will read them. I will. And I welcome everyone's hate about me. This podcast or news or whatever it is that you want to hate. Just some. Yeah.

[00:15:26] Well we'll send it to Brian. Yeah. Please come on. Some shit right over here. I feel like Brian.

[00:15:36] I feel like you're missing a huge opportunity for for your perfect newsletter, which is just like hate mail.

[00:15:44] Oh yeah. That sounds like a good self reinforcing thing. Yeah, it would be. Maybe that's it. Yeah. Hey, man, what are you. I mean, who would it be called.

[00:15:53] Literally it's literally writes itself, Bryan.

[00:15:58] Wow. That's the million dollar idea.

[00:16:04] So this one that came in all caps. That's many, many, many paragraphs. The Silverglade was your quote quotation mark. Forest Management to quotation marks. Exclamation point. I don't think it is very long, but I'll just read you the last paragraph, which I think was just amazing.

[00:16:25] Then Brian, Uncle Sam will say, Brian, I know no Brian. And you do not know Don Trump. So USA is full of double quotation marks. No nothings.

[00:16:41] That's that's it. That's that's I mean, I read that it would have me home. No, it actually didn't make any fit. No, it's great. This person, There, signature includes their e-mail address. It says There, writer and Ulster's includes the words university degrees, university degrees.

[00:17:00] There's so many. It's like not even. OK. That's all right. Yeah.

[00:17:06] So, you know, I def I got really going first. Just tell me you are a fucking moron, ok. Yeah. I'm going to tweet that. Yeah. I'm sorry basic. I got a good one from a I think this muscleman after it was actually at rupee's only California having its first million acre fire I think a fire. Yeah. And people get really mad about that. Besides this lack of facts and this one reads, you have no basis, in fact, for any of the statements you have made, which makes me wonder who pays you to spew this trash and why. Stop spreading stupidity and expecting people to mindlessly accept it. Get a real job. Get a real job. And I really felt it was not. I mean, it's like it was pride to want to list all the clean slate ads.

[00:17:51] You know, it's a you know, I didn't even sign your name. That was the worst. It's like this verbiage. You. Yeah. And actually, this is what I think you appreciate. This person may actually be a I take listener is the subject line. It's just. Come on, man. This will be done. OK, Brian, I know you read your emails. You censor even the ones criticizing you, even abusing you. I want to take you for a wild ride in your imagination.

[00:18:21] However, truth be told, every bit is true and then it goes on into some crazy fuckin conspiracy stuff about cars and Macker sizing them. And I don't even now.

[00:18:36] Does Elon Musk make anything? No. No, he does not, actually. Maybe. But this person did so to get back to them.

[00:18:45] They gave me their cell phone number and I spent, what is it on the air. But if you want sex, my buddy Peter, after I left, they said, well, I know you said you were the one who helps you because he references the fact that he has sent multiple e-mails.

[00:19:06] I should read them all to get a better stance. So maybe one the other ones does back mention on Muscat's.

[00:19:11] I mean, you've got to read the trilogy. I mean, this e-mail is a lie. And so I don't know if I'm ready to Copac and read the other ones, but there's a there's a lot going on. There's a lot going on. There is a lot going on. I actually also got some nice ones. Someone just sent me an email with just the subject line that said Enjoyed your. My Heater's article. Great job. That's very sweet. I welcome. Yeah. Base male two. Just for the record, folks.

[00:19:40] Yeah. You love that. You can if you like. They say about heartache you can say them too.

[00:19:45] Yeah. Send them the nice stuff. Yeah. Leave them a nice review. Yeah. But then you can send it to me too. You can see me on it.

[00:19:57] That's how I look at all of that. Oh you're just what you're saying to me is that you have not left this review. Oh yeah.

[00:20:06] That's going to do that right now.

[00:20:18] Why wouldn't they let the butterfly into the dance?

[00:20:25] Cindy Sheehan, because it was a moth ball.

[00:20:32] OK. What do you call a fly without any.

[00:20:37] Mike Pence's best friend. Oh, Larry, what a wall, a wall.

[00:20:47] Not a flat. Well, why? I get it. I get it.

[00:21:06] Any closing thoughts on the I and debates and these fucking clowns?

[00:21:13] I mean, I feel better. I feel way better after watching that than I do after watching the last one.

[00:21:20] Yeah, that's true. Yeah. That gave me a shot in the arm that I needed. Kamala's history as a prosecutor has never been more clutch.

[00:21:32] Yeah. Even though it was a lot of bad faith arguments, it was really something to see them actually talk about climate.

[00:21:42] Yeah, I thought so, too. I actually thought the moderator did a good job. Both Yeah.

[00:21:47] Although although in saying that, that does remind me of my other big pet peeve in this debate, which was that she just asked Pence if he believed climate change was like you.

[00:22:04] I know that is the one thing I wish she had been like, well, I wish she'd push back on that or I wish, but I think that that part could drive very liberal. And she did pretty good.

[00:22:13] Yeah. Yeah, she definitely did better than Chris Wallace said last year. Last week. Street feels like it's been a year. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:22:23] I will say this is like my fault. It's, you know, it's she did better. Chris was did whatever Chris Wallace did. I think the the points that they really just need some really smart people to ask clever questions like, oh, some folks talking right now raps about these things.

[00:22:37] Are you pitching yourself to moderate the next debate I was pitching and all of us. But if you don't want to I mean, I so think I could do that without cussing. I think that there should be Cusi in debates. Actually, it will be a lot of it.

[00:22:58] All right. Well, we'll see if either Pence or his pet fly spread Coupet around everyone this week.

Transcription

A recap of the VP Debate, particularly the climate bits and what everyone got wrong on fracking, with guest commentator Brian Kahn, of Earther!

[00:00:09] Hey, Hotcakes. Welcome to Hot Take, the podcast where we examine the climate crisis and all the ways we're talking and not talking about it. I'm Mary Annaise Heglar.

[00:00:20] And I'm Amy Westervelt. Today, we're talking about something that's on everyone's mind. Political instability. And specifically how climate change intersects with and intensifies it.

[00:00:33] Exactly. And we're joined this episode by Justin Worland, who is the lead environmental and climate reporter at Time magazine, which is just like a magazine that my mother loves and adores as whereas if she reads Time magazine, she then reads everything in the world and knows everything that is happening ever. So we're very lucky to have him on this show.

[00:00:58] Yeah. Yeah, he's great. I think his reporting in general is really, really great. And he talked quite a bit about how these issues of political instability and climate intersect. And he explained for us what an Amy Cony Berrett confirmation might mean for climate policy.

[00:01:18] Yeah. And we dug in to a little bit more about how climate change increases and exacerbates police violence because, of course, it does exacerbates all violence, who is not more irritable when they're hot and bothered. So, yeah, it was a really great to dig into that with them. If you want the links to the articles we talk about in here, you should make sure that you subscribe to our newsletter. And if you want some extra amazing premium content, you can subscribe for just seven dollars a month.

[00:01:48] That's right. And we also have a free version. If seven dollars a month feels like a stretch right now, we get it. There will be more details in the show, notes on how to find that and special request.

[00:01:59] Please go leave us. A review in Apple podcasts. If you have not already done that or wherever you are listening, but the Apple podcast, once I don't know, seem to actually matter more. It's how people find us.

[00:02:10] Yeah, it's really easy. Just like go in there, give us a little five stars. We'll just like, say you love it. You don't really need to think about it that much. If you have a negative review, we have another system for that.

[00:02:22] And we'll talk about that at the end of the show.

[00:02:24] Yeah, it's time to talk about climate.

[00:02:36] Just a whirlwind welcome to the show. We're so happy to have you there. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:41] So first things first. How did you get into journalism and specifically into climate journalism?

[00:02:48] Yeah, so I got into journalism really like in college, I kind of fell in love with the school paper and was just like that. I always joke like the school paper was my second major or like my major. Did you go to school?

[00:03:03] I went to Harvard or rootworms in the school paper. Yeah. I mean, so I did that and I and then I so I knew I wanted to go into journalism, did some internships wound up at time doing my breaking news that was very sort of, you know, entry level stuff and abouts five years ago, a little more than five years ago. This opportunity came to do the climate beat. And [00:03:31]honestly, I was like, what's this all about? I don't really know. And sort of after, like, a little trial period realize like, wow, this is actually the most important issue and it's not being covered enough or or in some ways, you know. Right. [15.8s] And so I sort of felt like that. And that's.

[00:03:50] Yeah. I mean, it's been, I guess, five and a half years.

[00:03:53] Do you remember the moment where you were like, oh, wait a minute, there's a line here.

[00:03:57] I mean, I think it definitely was like an evolution, but like I don't know if there was like a like one exact moment. But I mean, I think it was just sort of.

[00:04:08] Delving off into rabbit holes and seeing the implications of climate change for these areas that certainly weren't what I had been accustomed to reading about. So I don't I mean, I don't know if there's like that's like there's like a definitive moment.

[00:04:25] Yeah, you mentioned there sometimes not being covered, right?

[00:04:28] If you could change one thing or if it's a, you know, two or three, that's fine, too, about the way that we talk about climate in the mainstream discourse or in the media. What would it be?

[00:04:38] Yeah, I mean, that's right. You're you're right to say like two or three or.

[00:04:42] Yeah, I like to. Yeah. R11 yeah. We have time.

[00:04:48] I mean I think I think so. There's like a few things. One is I'm increasingly impressed that I think people who cover climate and know it well like do a good job at doing that.

[00:05:00] I think the challenge of course, comes when you look at the presidential debates or any time when somebody who doesn't really know their stuff like starts or needs to talk about climate. And so I you know, you get you get the bigger challenges. I think the one, if I had to pick one, is the framing of climate change, addressing climate change as like, what do you have to give up?

[00:05:25] And I think this is like something that I see even from, you know, mainstream journalists who should know better, who will frame a question about, you know, well, how much will it cost? How much should we be willing to sacrifice at it? I mean, you like I think everybody who listens to this podcast knows what why that's like trouble on, like, so many levels. But it's still, I think, what a lot of people think and I think even like I think even some people who mean, well, Democratic politicians sometimes will slip into a sort of like, you know, we don't we don't want to give anything up, sort of like language about it.

[00:06:06] Yeah, that's my that's my one thing.

[00:06:08] Yeah. Like how they don't want to give up fracking.

[00:06:12] And fracking is a prime example where it's it's you know, I understand the sort of messaging like you don't want to talk about losing fracking jobs, OK, but like maybe talk about the opportunities that are created. You know, if we do move away from from fracking. Right. Like don't frame it about giving up fracking talking and talk about like, yeah, we'll have cleaner water. Right. There's opportunities for new industries in new jobs and. Right. Yeah. So I think that's that is a good example.

[00:06:39] My most recent rant on fracking has been like I just don't understand why politicians in particular, when they're asked about that, don't come back immediately and say fracking companies are laying people off right and left. What are you talking about? They're all going bankrupt. They've never made money.

[00:06:55] The thing I always want to know, like, why don't they come back with this? Like, we're talking about saving lives here. Yes.

[00:07:01] Seems like this isn't about what's to be gained in the GDP. We're talking about like human beings, like so like, well, how hard would it be to come back with like, this is killing people and it's going to kill a lot more people. Anyway, I could go on that rant forever.

[00:07:20] No, I mean, I think that's that's that's definitely right. But I also think, like, I wrote a story in the spring about cost benefit analysis, which is like a a thing that, you know, why do we conduct the cost of an analysis when it comes to saving lives? Like, that's a whole different thing. Like, even if you accept the premise that it's all about GDP, like we should still be doing a lot of the things that, you know, that that we're talking about purely on the basis of saving lives. No, I think it's important to make that argument on all levels.

[00:07:54] You know, what's crazy about that, too, is that there was a story I mean, like way back 20, 30 years. It was like a big scandal when GM was caught basically making this calculation in like a spreadsheet.

[00:08:07] They were calculating how much money they would lose from a massive recall for like a safety flaw that they knew existed versus how many people would die. And they made the call that it would cost them less to pay out insurance claims from people dying than to do this recall.

[00:08:27] What the fuck? That's kind of what we're doing at a massive scale. Yeah.

[00:08:32] See, this is what I love about doing a podcast with Amy. She does, like, knows that shit.

[00:08:45] Yeah. One of the things we've learned the most from doing take for about a year now is how quickly the climate story has changed in the past, like four years, really the past two years. So are there any interesting emerging things that you've noticed in the ways that we talk about climate change?

[00:09:01] Yeah, I mean, I think one like just this. I mean, when I took on this be like five and a half years ago is not that long ago. I mean, just the sort of the volume and attention like level of concern that I think it's gotten is, I think the first thing.

[00:09:17] But I think the other thing is just, you know, talking about it as intersexual issue. And I. That like in really every respect. I think there's a growing recognition that climate change, climate policy, climate activism is not just about like, you know, emissions and even like emissions and sea level rise, that it's actually about literally everything. I think that that's something that, you know, most people would not have understood five years ago. And I think I don't I mean, I don't know that most people understand it now, but but I think that people who pay attention definitely are are increasingly aware of that. So I think that's a huge thing. There's so many reasons from that for that. I obviously like the activism with green diesel etc as a big part of it. But I think there are a lot of a lot of reasons.

[00:10:10] OK. So, Justin, what are you reading these days and what. Is there anything that you read on a regular basis to kind of stay up on these things or that, you know, a particular writer that you like on climate?

[00:10:20] Yeah, I mean, that's a good question. I try so I think a few things I would say I have I don't know. I subscribe to, like, I don't know, 20 newsletters. It's your favorite. And there's a right answer. Yeah, of course. Of course. Yours is my my favorite. I should probably take a step back and say this is a good time to plug my own newsletter.

[00:10:43] Which is called one point five, and you can Google it and find at one point five times. So please subscribe.

[00:10:49] But I. But really, I don't know. I think one thing that I've focused my reading on or tried to focus my reading on is, you know, as I said, thinking about climate as an intersexual issue. And so, like, trying not and there are a lot of great people writing about climate, but trying not to just read about climate, but actually just trying to like read the news.

[00:11:10] You know, anything and everything and sort of trying to find those connections that maybe people aren't thinking about because, you know, climate.

[00:11:19] I mean, for a long time, like the climate reporter, like, you know, had a lot of work to do, writing about climate reports and all the different climate things that are happening. And like so one thing that I really. Yeah.

[00:11:31] Like I try to do is like, OK, let me just read the newspaper or me read the whole newspapers and see where the climate story is that people are totally missing that. Yeah.

[00:11:41] Yeah. So that's like a very broad answer. But like, I don't know, I think it's important.

[00:11:59] No reporter at Time magazine, which is like very, very, very dear in my family, is the only magazine that my mother subscribes to.

[00:12:09] So I have a lot of questions for you. OK. One wet dog always knows the time.

[00:12:17] I hope you can ask Amy for help. OK. Amy, can I get a hint?

[00:12:27] I feel like it's like it's funny that you can ask me for help too, because I'm also very bad at these.

[00:12:33] Yeah. No, it's not really reptiles. Not actually. Not politically. Which is why I have no idea. Let let a watch dog. Oh God. Come on. We share that.

[00:12:48] That was an easy one. You started using, didn't you?

[00:12:53] Well, I mean, there's plenty to go. Don't worry.

[00:12:55] They're all about time. So if you thought from that setup, I was actually going to ask you about Time magazine. Think a fucking again. Why did the man put a clock under his desk? Well, the whole.

[00:13:15] See, our. Went ahead. Yeah. What do you do on your day? You work, right?

[00:13:29] Clock under it to work overtime. There you go.

[00:13:40] OK. So there's hope for you. Death is what that says.

[00:14:05] OK. So, Justin, the main reason we want to have you on is to talk about climate change and political destabilization, which is something you've written a bit about in time. So we have an excerpt from an article you wrote called How Climate Change Beats Political Instability.

[00:14:22] And we'd love it if you could read us that quick. Two paragraphs.

[00:14:26] Well, OK. Change play in our current political instability.

[00:14:32] It's a controversial question. For years, many politicians and commentators shuddered when scientists or climate activists discussed climate change in relation to individual storms or wildfires, accusing them of politicizing disaster. And in those cases, the link to climate change was relatively straightforward. The evidence connecting climate change and political stability has been less obvious, but is becoming increasingly impossible to ignore. Warmer temperatures and extreme weather exacerbate social stress, worsening economic outcomes. These, in turn, affect political behavior. A landmark 2013 paper in the journal Science found that the change in temperature of one standard deviation was associated with a two point three percent increase in interpersonal conflict flight rates and a thirteen point two percent increase in the rate of intergroup conflict. By 2050, temperatures are expected to rise by two standard deviations in most places across the globe and by as much as four standard deviations in some places. And these tumultuous times, both politically and climatically. There are several key factors of human behavior to consider. Research has shown that warm temperatures increase the odds of violent interpersonal interactions. So do you see spikes in violent crime? And police are more likely to use extreme force and use force and extreme heat. Studies have also found that people dealing with extreme heat are more likely to distrust outsiders. And research has shown that challenging weather shapes political decisions. And this is a quote here when people are uncomfortable, weather explains some of that, says Cohen. Alexander Cohen. And to continue, the quote can explain how There, respond to public opinion surveys.

[00:16:16] We know that it affects how they vote or if they vote at all.

[00:16:20] The thing I found most interesting about it was kind of the first thing you said was that it's a controversial question. And [00:16:26]I've got understand that it is a controversial question to a lot of people. [3.9s]

[00:16:31] [00:16:31]But I just don't understand how you like if you take the whole world and make it unstable. Of course, every system that operates on top of it is going to become unstable, too, right. [10.9s]

[00:16:42] [00:16:42]It's like trying to write in your journal while the subway's moving like you can. You're not going to be able to do it. [6.5s]

[00:16:49] [00:16:49]I know it's super weird, too, because, like, nobody questions. [2.7s]

[00:16:53] [00:16:53]You know, the fact that daily life gets harder when there's an extreme weather event, for example, like that's uncontroversial. So I don't understand why the idea that, you know, more and more extreme heat or hurricanes or fires or storms or whatever is going to make things less stable is is not patently obvious. [19.5s]

[00:17:15] [00:17:15]Yeah, right. Like, of course it is. [1.6s] So just how did you come to write this piece?

[00:17:23] Yeah. I mean, I was just so this was for this originally was in my newsletter that I mentioned earlier where I tried to just write about the news of the week and find the climate hook. And this was, you know, I mean, there was one of the many weeks and the last several months where everything just felt totally insane.

[00:17:43] And so, you know, I just I was familiar with the literature on climate and political instability. And I just thought, you know, it's a good time to sort of just go through it and review it for any readers who aren't. And, you know, it's like one of those things, too, where you can sort of pick apart, like a lot of the literature is on the developing world places outside of the US. But I just felt also, you know, given the storms that were in the Gulf, given the wildfires, given some of the flooding in the Midwest, I just felt like, you know what?

[00:18:21] Maybe this is like a time when people will actually really get it. Like, you know, to the point earlier, like, why is this controversial? I mean, I don't know. Obviously, I think it shouldn't be controversial, but I feel like a lot of it is that people just like they don't they can't. It seems too abstract. And so I just felt like, well, this is a moment where you can literally see it, like you can literally see the flooding and the wildfires, et cetera. So it just seemed like the right moment to sort of elevate that literature.

[00:18:53] You know, I think it might be because people are a scarce people. It is terrifying. Right.

[00:18:58] And so people are like, it can't possibly be that bad like that cognitive dissonance kind of comes back. I don't know if y'all used to have this experience. No idea. Like before 2016, whenever I would try to talk about climate to people, like they would really shut down and get really defensive and be like, it can't possibly be that bad. If it is that bad, somebody is working on a solution. Nobody would ever let it get that bad. We get really mad at me about it. And I feel like that still happens. Now, when you try to make the social consequences of it clear to people.

[00:19:35] Yeah. That yeah, that's yeah. I mean, like in a way it threatens. I mean, just understanding that threatens the way that we understand and engage in our world. So that's I, I mean I can get why that's a reaction even though that's not a smart reaction. Yeah.

[00:19:53] In the same article you talk about how increased heat affects police violence. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

[00:20:00] Yeah, well, it's so I mean, I refer to a study in this in this piece. But I mean, basically, you know, I mean, you can take police out of it for a minute and you think about it when it's really hot and you're outside and you're kind of agitated like, you know, you or me or any like person is more likely to make a rash decision. And the same goes for police. And, you know, there's literature on this. It shows that now police are more likely to pull that trigger when they feel agitated and extreme heat. It's interesting, too. I just as a sort of aside, this isn't in the piece. But I want to this focus group and this year but before cohabited in February, sort of a mix of black voters in Philadelphia.

[00:20:51] And it was like they sort of were talked through like, you know, what different thought, different parts of the climate. And most people walked in without really having much thought about climate change.

[00:21:04] But it was so interesting to see, like, people come to the conclusion, like on their own that like, what do you anticipate if there are more hot days and there are tougher times with police, tougher times and streets. It is like a thing that people intuitively get, even though. And of course, there's this robust literature to support that. So from what I just I was it's amazing how, like, people experience this already.

[00:21:30] Right. Like, if you look up the temperatures of any major day of political upheaval, it was always hot as balls like Bastille Day was super fucking high like it was. Same thing with the L.A. riots. Like you'll notice that the L.A. riots and when I say L.A. riots, I am thinking of like I'm thinking of the Rodney King riots of the 90s. But they only happen in really hot places because that happened. And I think in late March or something like it wasn't a typically hot it wasn't the summer. And so it happened in places like Atlanta and L.A. and then like the the unrest that we saw this summer when people spilled out into the streets. It was really fucking hot this summer. The Watts riots in the 60s, all of the all of those things happened when it was extremely hot outside because people are more irritable and not even just like the people spilling out into the streets. But the police will are way more likely to show their ass. Right. I also think of Katrina where they just like bounce or if they stay, they got it.

[00:22:34] Got real biblical. Yeah. I also wanted to talk about how I think people they think of climate change as being like a quick thing often.

[00:22:41] Maybe people are getting away from that belief. But I think a lot of people still think it is. And it's like you'll wake up one day and like this is climate change and it's actually not like that at all. And so I wanted to read from a piece from two thousand eighteen that was in the Atlantic called Trump Climate Change and the Future of U.S. Democracy by Van Newkirk.

[00:23:00] The most immediate consequence of climate change won't be an abrupt entry into an alien Anthropocene Hill.

[00:23:06] It's more likely to be a slow descent. Racial wealth gaps will increase. Racial health disparities will be exacerbated. Sprawling metropolises and rural hamlets alike will face steeper and steeper budgetary constraints and could be forced to rely heavily on the fees and fines to keep the lights on, a move that some cash strapped local governments have already made and one that disproportionately affects poor or minority residents. Housing markets will continue to realign in favor of displacement and the creation of a migrant renter class. Marginalized neighborhoods will continue to shoulder a majority of the environmental burden. Trust in government will continue to decline as it proves unable to help people plan for or respond to climate effects. Elections will be disrupted by disasters. Fewer and fewer people will have real attachments to local civic life. And even the concept of local or national shared destiny will suffer as the haves are shielded from consequences and disasters can and will rapidly push. Each of these weaknesses to crisis points, even as the rolling disaster of environmental change makes crises incrementally more likely every day.

[00:24:16] This is something I think about a lot because they feel like this is true everywhere.

[00:24:20] But it's I think it has the potential to be slightly more catastrophic in the US because it's happening on top of a society that's never really been good at community.

[00:24:34] I also think about this this year in particular, because people are being pushed out of their homes by fire, them by floods. And how are they going to vote? Where are they going to vote?

[00:24:45] Well, and then the fact that they're being pushed out of their homes during a pandemic, too, it's just like, yeah, it's really remarkable how, like, as you said, this is like this describes our world now.

[00:24:59] And this was like a prescient article written like two years ago. It's just it's it's terrifying.

[00:25:07] And I think it's like it's terrifying when we, like people in the know have known and expected what we see now. And it's just happening so much faster.

[00:25:17] And it's I keep thinking that, too. It's happening so much faster than than even what like. Yeah. What I thought or most people, you know, I think I don't know. I don't know why I thought it like we had another 10, 20 years before it got like this, but yeah.

[00:25:36] Yeah. Now same thing. I kind of think about that too when I hear like, you know, there's this new segment of climate denial that's like, yeah, climate change is real, but it's not that bad. And it's just like, what level of denial?

TIME magazine energy and environment reporter Justin Worland joins to discuss the many ways climate change and political instability feed and exacerbate each other.

Hot Take S2

S2, Ep11 | Political Instability =/ Planetary Instability, with Justin Worland

S2, Ep10 |  The Flyest Debate Ever, with Brian Kahn

Hot Take is a holistic, irreverent, honest look at the climate crisis and all the ways media and society are talking—and not talking—about it. Hosted by real-life friends Mary Annaïse Heglar and Amy Westervelt—an essayist and a journalist— Hot Take offers a unique perspective on the issue of climate change. With a breath of fresh humanity and humor, conversation moves swiftly from cackling about the bad week an oil company had, to speaking seriously and passionately about the unequal distribution of climate impacts and our own experiences of climate grief. And then washing it down with a round of dad jokes! Every week, we’ll connect you with the latest climate news and with the journalists and storytellers trying to make sense of this complex issue to help you see the world through climate-colored glasses. We ended production on Hot Take at the end of 2022, but you can still access episodes here, or 

A holistic, irreverent, honest look at the climate crisis and all the ways media and society are talking—and not talking—about it.

S2, Ep10 | The Flyest Debate Ever, with Brian Kahn

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S2, Ep11 | Political Instability =/ Planetary Instability, with Justin Worland